Thursday, November 24, 2011

There's another Snow White

In my last post I reported that a "warrior princess" Snow White film was being made. I suggested that modern culture had trouble accepting women as feminine creatures. As if to prove my point, I discovered that there's another film version of Snow White being produced called Mirror Mirror. This one stars the daughter of musician Phil Collins, Lily Collins:


Lily Collins as Snow White


Obviously I can't complain about the promotional picture shown above. That's certainly a feminine representation of Snow White.

But she doesn't stay that way. She ends up as a swashbuckling leader of a group of bandits in the forest. Lily Collins says that:

Our Snow White starts off as the fairytale princess we all know and love and then she progresses into a young woman and much of a fighter.

Just as Kristen Stewart was left with bloodied knuckles after her fight scenes, so too has Lily Collins found the fight scenes difficult:

While “Snow White & The Huntsman” has offered images of a warrior Snow White, Lily too, in “Mirror Mirror,” has some fight scenes.

“This was insane training,” she said of preparing for the role. “I’ve been fight training and fencing for about three months now… I was kickboxing, doing some stuff on wires. It’s been really intense.”

And all that training has left Lily a little worse for wear.

“I’ve gotten a lot of bumps and bruises, but so far no bad injuries,” she said.

So to prepare for the role of Snow White an actress now has to spend three months kickboxing.

Which raises a serious issue. If a girl wants to develop her feminine essence - so that she brings it out to its fullest and most admirable extent - then how does she go about cultivating it?

Modern society does not care much for this task. A girl will get no positive guidance from the mainstream culture. Watching actresses kickbox their way across the silver screen or the TV set isn't likely to help.

But if girls don't cultivate what is most admirable in their femininity, then won't they feel disconnected in their self-identity? And won't it be more difficult for men to feel instinctively connected to them?

Here's one small piece of advice I can offer. A young woman should look at herself in the mirror and observe her body: the elegance of her hands, the slenderness of her arms, the softness of her breasts, the warmth of her eyes and her smile. And she should try to match this truth about her body with her inner presence. Does her inner sense of self match what her own body has developed toward?

64 comments:

  1. You know there is another entertainment industry that has more money invested into it and is currently making more money than the film industry.
    That is the video game industry. Its dominated by western white male creators from north America. Its only rivaled by the Japanese game industry.
    Video games still have a healthy number of male protagonists, that defend themselves and their communities. Often with guns(!).
    I think video game industry is hard for liberals to crack as some one pointed out (maybe on VFR can't remember) If games followed liberal ideology they wouldn't sell.

    I've thought that maybe one of the reasons there are so many female warriors popping up in movies is because male audiences have moved onto the bigger industry of gaming and the producers of films have correctly identified that a lot of movie goers are young women. So they are marketing the movies to them. They are also stroking the masculine egos of modern girls to sell tickets.
    I've lost count recently of the number off women who claim to be too masculine and dominant.
    They really buy into this thinking. I can't take a woman trying to be a man seriously ever. Infact I find it insulting.

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  2. I'm not even sure they're motivated by a serious profit motive. If you want to make a successful movie you ditch the politics and put out something like 300. The way Hollywood pumps out the flops you'd think they were a protected and nationalised industry.

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  3. The way Hollywood pumps out the flops you'd think they were a protected and nationalised industry.

    I may be wrong but I think that this is a crisis in all of the arts (e.g. performing arts, visual arts). Like all institutions, the artistic community has without a doubt been affected by modern mainstream culture and currently believes that art is about challenging, destroying and rebelling and not about honouring and building up what is good, true and beautiful.

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  4. Girl-fantasist movies such as these are produced by the hundred every year and are of no issue in themselves. Their debasement of values, corruptions , perversions and so forth are but part of the sea of noise that exists in this field.

    The issue that is far more important is the corruption of titles. Rather than promoting these debased movies on their own dubious merits and producing a unique title, it is common practice to attach the moniker of something known or even held with some affection, to it: thus “Snow white”.

    It has been common practice for those promoting homosexual or feral female agendas to do this to Shakespeare. Rather than admitting that their works are social propaganda pap, plays of Shakespeare are used, hollowed out and debased, and then their full or part titles are kept.

    Most adults, I believe, are aware of this (through bitter experience), but these type of perverse fairly tale movies are aiming at children, who aren’t.

    Situation deteriorating? No. It has now hit a bottom plateau. The cost of making movies (excluding the actors ) is so small due to digitization (filming, digital effects ,editing, distribution...etc ) that the numbers of yearly releases has grown over the last 15 years by perhaps an order of magnitude.

    15 years ago, to my recollection, there were about 600 major titles released in the USA per year

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  5. "A young woman should look at herself in the mirror and observe her body: the elegance of her hands, the slenderness of her arms, the softness of her breasts, the warmth of her eyes and her smile."

    If not elegance of her hands, definitely slenderness of arms usually indicates a slim physique. However, slender is not exactly the adjective for the average young woman in Australia or New Zealand. (I stand to be corrected, but I speak from personal observation.) Is it the Western diet? Or steroid pumping at the local Gym? What's going on? Why don't we see the traditional image of a demure Snow White type among young Western women?

    Warmth of her eyes? The attitude and the look of most young women these days would indicate the contrary description - as in "the coldness of her eyes."

    Otherwise, I get the point of the post, and in general do agree. Also fully agree with the comments of MWH-Perth.

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  6. >>Warmth of her eyes? The attitude and the look of most young women these days would indicate the contrary description - as in "the coldness of her eyes."<<

    American Yankee women and white British chavs are often cold-eyed. Apart from those two groups I haven't seen this. The pretty young lady who offered to give up her seat to my 4 year old son on the bus this morning had very nice eyes! And I've noticed it usually similar young women - nice white English middle-class girls - who are by far the most common people to offer their seats to him, or to me if I have my walking-stick with me.

    I think these 'warrior princess' characters are created by men, nerdy filmwriters & directors, and are primarily aimed at young men too. Most young women don't really identify with such, even if they like fantasy they prefer noncombatant heroines like the one in Twilight.

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  7. "created by nerdy film makers"
    This is not so there is a love for girls with guns in american beer guzzling culture.
    Warrior women are an erotic fantasy designed for men.
    There are however a growing group of nerds within the nerd community (its becoming a big community to those who dont know) who are disturbing feminist males. Now they don't just take feminist stances on issue they practically hate all depictions of attractive women i'd say these nerd feminists are just as oppressive than muslims. The most extreme examples are the editing of breasts off all art and photography. They would approve of kirsten stuart in full plate mail because this hides her body and flattens her chest. Making her look like a boy. I always thought she looked like a boy.
    Theres been some persistantly annoying attempts to penetrate the techy/nerdy/gamer community with liberal thought. They are really obvious and are met with a lot of ridicule.
    Feminist liberals are having a tough time with this community that is made up of mostly young men who use 'fag' and 'gay' as an insult or negative and even use the word rape to mean overwhelming victory or defeat. They actually think its funny they anger liberals so much.

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  8. Mark begging your pardon but I wouldn't say that picture is a 'feminine representation' of Snow White really - it's a late modern depiction of Snow White, drawing on magazine cover art, fashion photography, and the cartoon fantasy film tradition. That's something very different from any traditional feminine ideal you might be able to identify.

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  9. Anonymous,

    The "play nice" brigade isn't going to get much traction in the gamer world I supsect because there are almost no girls there to impress.

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  10. "The "play nice" brigade isn't going to get much traction in the gamer world I supsect because there are almost no girls there to impress."
    There are a lot of girls in the gamer world. There didn't used to be but now there are a lot. That is actually why there is this bizarre push for liberal opinion in the online gamer community. Feminist women and their femboy supporters are encountering the unacceptable hidden world of boys being boys.

    A while ago i went to a large nerd convention in sydney with thousands of people visiting most of them were women. They like dress up you see...

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  11. Considering Phil Collins ruined the rock band Genesis I can imagine his daughter doing a similar screw up of Snow White.

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  12. As a woman who has been gaming since her early teens, back when it really was fairly unusual to be a 'girl gamer' and wasn't seen as something to be particularly proud of, I must confess that I find women thinking they're unique or worthy of attention because they play video games very tiresome - especially recently, as it is has become a lot more common. As it was always just a genuine hobby for me, something that I liked because I liked it, I never felt as if I deserved some sort of prize for it.

    Sadly though, the higher number of female gamers is definitely having an affect on the direction of gaming, in ways that I do not appreciate. It is true that, aside from the Japanese, game development is dominated by North American whites and Europeans. I recognised even in my teens that part of the reason I became so fond of games (mostly fantasy games, in my case) was because it placed me into distinctly European settings, usually with a degree of racial homogeneity, and often with heroic and masculine archetypes that I found admirable. This has become a point of complaint for some PC 'gamers' (usually female, or their male sycophants) - for example, Dragon Age: Origins, which you'd think would have pleased them with 'inclusive' features such as gay romance options, still had people complaining that it was racist because one of the origins involved a white noble family, and if you wanted your character to be black, the parents didn't change colour to match. This, in a setting that was undeniably European - names, artstyles, references to mythology, castles, you name it. For the family to be black was completely incongruent with the setting. Apparently whites can't be homogenous anywhere, not even a game, not even when it's logical.

    There are also many discussions calling for 'stronger female characters', whatever that means. In a few games I've played, the female characters I found pleasant and identified with tended to often be complained about by feminists on gaming forums as 'annoying' and 'weak'. There seems to be this weird combination of warrior women with big breasts or revealing outfits being marketed towards men, and 'strong', androgynous female characters marketed towards feminist women, with not all that much in between.

    The only positive thing is that there are some games coming out of Europe that are going against the more PC North American varieties that are doing well with a certain subset of fans like myself who are sick of feeling like we're being preached to with our games. So there's definitely two camps in the gaming community - some who want more 'classic' (non-PC) games with a focus on quality, and some who concern themselves more with whether a female character is 'strong' enough or whether gays and bisexuals are being catered to. That said, it's very difficult to chip away at the stronghold of masculine game varieties such as first person shooters - they're much harder to feminise and are, I'm sure it's no surprise, still the most popular.

    I suppose these problems I've started to see in some genres of gaming is why we are also seeing more and more confused versions of European fairytales and stories in other media. It's supposed to somehow appeal to those of us who love these kinds of stories while still being PC. So we see things like a mixed race Guinevere, Snow White in armour, random non-whites whose very presence in the setting is completely illogical, and so on. It's supposed to appeal to those of us who enjoy our legends and fairytales, while keeping to the political script of the day. I find it deeply insulting and I refuse to watch any series or movie that does it.

    Anyway, that's enough rambling from me on that subject. I'm usually more of a lurker here but I thought I'd offer my 2c. :)

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  13. I think these 'warrior princess' characters are created by men, nerdy filmwriters & directors, and are primarily aimed at young men too. Most young women don't really identify with such


    Well, you're wrong. The genre got its start with "Xena, Warrior Princess", and the next notable example of it was "Buffy The Vampire Slayer". Both shows were huge hits with young women and had very heavy feminist overtones.

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  14. Well, you're wrong. The genre got its start with "Xena, Warrior Princess", and the next notable example of it was "Buffy The Vampire Slayer". Both shows were huge hits with young women and had very heavy feminist overtones

    A very interesting debate there. I think there are perhaps three driving forces for the current PC undertones and 'strong women' in films and games: liberal men, feminist women and homosexual men.

    I don't believe it's just feminist women, homosexual men or liberal men. It's all of them. They may have some sort of alliance perhaps?

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  15. There are a number of ancient myths regarding warrior women, fighting women, and so on. Examples include the Song of Deborah (thought to be one of the oldest passages in the Bible), the Greek myth of the Amazon tribe, the chaste huntress Goddess Diana. There's another told of in Metamorphoses but can't remember the name, sorry. The genre has *very* old roots indeed.

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  16. Elizabeth Smith said...
    "I don't believe it's just feminist women, homosexual men or liberal men. It's all of them. They may have some sort of alliance perhaps?"

    This is exactly it. Its very obvious if you ever encounter these groups anywhere on the internet.

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  17. I think a lot of this has to do with the restless Western desire to invent/reinvent things. Everything has to be new, different, original. If you just did a "same old same old" version people would say well what have you added? Where's the twist? So everything is altered and switched around. Lets make Snow White black? That's never been done before.

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  18. "Lets make Snow White black? That's never been done before."

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXFSsKFrCgY

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  19. "Examples include the Song of Deborah (thought to be one of the oldest passages in the Bible)"

    Please. Have you ever read the story? Deborah didn't take part in actual battle, she just went there with Barak, because he flat out refused to go without her.

    It's noteworthy that at a blog criticising feminism it takes a man to defend the feminist perversion of classic fairytales.

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  20. By the way, there is a passage which states that a woman shall not wear that which pertaineth upon a man, for it is abomination in the eyes of the LORD. In original Hebrew text the words are used which literally mean the warriors's garb. Here is an extract from 18th century Bible commentary (by Gill) :

    Deuteronomy 22:5

    Ver. 5. The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man,.... It being very unseemly and impudent, and contrary to the modesty of her sex; or there shall not be upon her any "instrument of a man" {f}, any utensil of his which he makes use of in his trade and business; as if she was employed in it, when her business was not to do the work of men, but to take care of her house and family; and so this law may be opposed to the customs of the Egyptians, as is thought, from whom the Israelites were lately come; whose women, as Herodotus {g} relates, used to trade and merchandise abroad, while the men kept at home; and the word also signifies armour {h}, as Onkelos renders it; and so here forbids women putting on a military habit and going with men to war, as was usual with the eastern women;...

    Depiction of women as warriors and positive glorification of it in films is profoundly unbiblical.

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  21. Anon:
    "Well, you're wrong. The genre got its start with "Xena, Warrior Princess", and the next notable example of it was "Buffy The Vampire Slayer". Both shows were huge hits with young women and had very heavy feminist overtones."

    Heh, I'm a player of Dungeons & Dragons, the tabletop roleplaying game, and I've been having this exact same debate (as 'S'mon') on a D&D forum:

    http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/314507-5th-edition-female-demographic.html

    Geek men wondering how to get 'normal' women to share geek interests seems to be a perennial.

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  22. What about Jael? She drove a tentpeg into the enemy King's head, pretty warlike. If you see that as a low act because Sisera was sleeping Ehud does something similar and he's shown as corageous. Jael and Deborah clearly step up when their country is in danger and they are shown in a positive light. The bigger issue though is that they step up to fill a gap where there is an absence of strong male leadership, eg Barak is a pussy and won't fight without Deborah. As well all this occurs in Judges which traces the gradual decline of the Jewish people into anarchy and lack of believe. Clearly its better to have strong men as the leaders and fighters.

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  23. Whoops Sisera was the enemy general not King.

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  24. "Both shows were huge hits with young women and had very heavy feminist overtones."

    and, though it's redundant, lesbian overtones?


    This "modification" of female movies has been going on for long enough. Only the present society is more receptive to women beating the crap out of each other and any man that dares utter anything, than just a few years ago.

    Here's the introduction of a review of Disney's modern-age Beauty and the Beast.


    "Traditional versions of this story feature a good and handsome prince who has been cursed by a wicked fairy. The Disney version's basic premise is entirely different: the prince had been selfish and was consequently punished -justifiably- by a good fairy.

    He is described in a voice-over as "spoiled, selfish, and unkind." The Beast has until his twenty-first birthday, until the enchanted rose petals begin falling, to remove the spell. To do that, he must not only be loved in spite of his outward ugliness (as in traditional versions) but also learn how to love in spite of his inward shallowness (unlike traditional versions).

    A new character has been added, too: Gaston, the village bully and braggart. Vain, ignorant, arrogant, and preposterously macho, Gaston excels at hunting, brawling, drinking, and spitting. The Disney version also eliminates Beauty's evil sisters.

    http://www.imdb.com/user/ur22510433/comments

    (down at last)

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  25. regarding gaming, the young boys' club should be brought down because it's keeping women from gaining careers in technology.

    "We need to get girls interested in computing by first grade. By fifth grade, it’s game over. Computing has an image crisis. A boy geek subculture has grown up around gaming that involves violence. It’s not something little girls aspire to.

    It’s not about lack of educational opportunities for women. Smart girls graduate from high school with straight A’s, go to college, and find themselves surrounded by guys who’ve been hacking for 10 years. So they’re way behind. They get discouraged, and go into law or medicine."

    http://boss.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/06/24/why-women-have-an-advantage-in-technology/



    I think the day when GTA franchise has a female protagonist will mark the end of male-centric gaming industry as mainstream.

    Already a game called Saint's Row which is much like GTA allows your character to be anything that you like. From a few reviews, a major point of praise from the liberal gaming community.

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  26. "Geek men wondering how to get 'normal' women to share geek interests seems to be a perennial."

    I'm a Geek (well to other peoples standards) my gf is very normal and shares none of my geek interests.
    I like it that way.
    Her love of being a very feminine woman is more refreshing. interesting and attractive than a girl being like me.

    Speaking of D&D I have a story I thought would be too obscure for this discussion but now we have gone into that direction...

    A while ago I got interested in a traditional game(its too obscure to reference) That I realised was bascially made to appeal to feminist women. 90% of the main characters are 'strong' female leaders.
    You would think this would satisfy feminists?
    Well I decided to have a look at their community forum and what did i find. Many threads blasting the game as being "sexist". Nearly all the posters in this thread were male feminists. They demanded that all signs of breasts be removed from the characters (covered up, flattened down)and all skin apart from the face be covered up.
    They claimed to be speaking for offended females they knew (possibly one)
    They refused to listen to the posters trying to tell them that the game is made with women in mind and all of the characters are modestly dressed.
    So its a funny story these people are not even satisfied if their entertainment is made to appeal to them.
    They want all feminity removed and the characters to be identical to men.
    I see this constantly popping up in many discussions and its a bit creepy.

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  27. I just read through that thread Simon. Its identical to the thread I was talking about. Someone makes a thread asks "how can we make this more appealing to women" then its a carbon copy discussion on feminism from men!
    If anyones wondering what connection this has to the Snow white movies. Its highly likely that the creators of both are D&D playing feminist men.
    A lot of actors, actresses and directors are gamers and rpg fans.

    To prove that this is a western problem.
    There is a popular series of video games called S.T.A.L.K.E.R made by Ukranians set in a fictional Chernobyl zone. In all the games there is not one female character.
    Some westerners asked the developers why are there no women in the games.
    The developers could not believe they had to answer this question to silly femboy westeners. They replied the chernobyl zone is too dangerous and unappealing for women. Its a mans world.

    Its also interesting if you compare Russian S.T.A.L.K.E.R roleplay with western roleplayers (In the most extreme form of real world geek RPGs known as LARPs).

    Russians and eastern Europeans simulate knife fights with real knives , use real guns,drive in real vehicles and wear real gas masks all to simulate living in a post apocalyptic zone.

    Westerners use cardboard swords and rubber weapons.

    Both of these events are popular with women dressing up in traditional costume or fantasy gear etc.

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  28. I have read the Song of Deborah Anon and I know some of the context, yes. Just offering it as one of a few examples. I note you have nothing to say against the other examples I offer.

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  29. Jesse, she killed Sisera in his sleep. She didn't go out to battle with men, did she? As for examples by another poster, as far as I remember Greeks beat the Amazons. I wonder what was the moral of the story. And Diana was a godess, not a mortal woman. On the other hand, Athenians didn't have female warriors and neither did Spartans, though women occupied a very high position in their society. Come to think of it, there were no women joining Roman legions.

    By the way, it was considered a shame for the warrior to die from the hand of a woman. Let's look at the same already mentioned story of Deborah. When Barak cowardly refuses to go to war without her, she informs him: "I will surely go with thee:notwithstanding the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honour; for the LORD shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman." And Vikings belived that there was no Valhalla for the warrior killed by a woman, it was the greatest shame possible.

    I also noticed that you both came with precedents but ignored the clear law straight out of the Bible. But of course, modern Western men also don't see any problem with women leaving home and family and doing business just like those Egyptians mentioned by Gill. I truly belive that Western civilisation is past the point of no return.

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  30. A christian school in a supposedly conservative state here in the US is already far advancing this concept:
    Link

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  31. With friends like these, who needs liberal

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  32. Sorry mate I'm not a Muslim, I don't need to keep women in the house all day long or covered up. I'm also quite openly on record as supporting women in work and provided they still prioritise their family I don't really see an issue with it. If a traditional lifestyle is so attractive for women then they’ll go for it on masse, regardless of what liberal stereotypes encourage. If they don't go for it then I don't want my civilisation to only be appreciated by one gender. Too mangina? So be it.

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  33. "If a traditional lifestyle is so attractive for women then they’ll go for it on masse, regardless of what liberal stereotypes encourage."

    Maybe you haven't heard of the not so little multi-billion dollar advertising industry. Their very existence is a testimony to the fact that people can be motivated to act one way or another by the messages that they receive from media. Individuals and society may regret those actions later (like smoking too many cigarettes in ones youth because all the cool actors in movies were doing it), but the damage is already done. If there are higher ideals to which we believe people should aspire, then we must support and promote those ideals. Or maybe you also haven't heard of the phrase "spreading the gospel". Where would Christianity be if the disciples had kept the teachings of Christ to themselves and just let everyone else find their own way.

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  34. I don't think women in work goes against that. Men go to work and aren't all cutthroat and selfish, why should women suddenly become so? If women are callous there are many reasons for this, chiefly because of the promotion of selfishness. You can be selfish in or outside of the home.

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  35. Jesse, do you call yourself a Christian? I wonder why a liberal like you keeps hanging on a supposedly traditionalist site. I understand you just want a gentler, softer feminism, one where the wifey still brings in that fat paycheck, but can't divorce you at will. Good luck with achieving your liberal utopia.
    I also notice that you equal traditional Western Christian family with Muslim practices. How politically correct of you! MRAs, take note, a lot of defenders of modern regime are men.

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  36. There are a number of ancient myths regarding warrior women, fighting women, and so on. Examples include the Song of Deborah (thought to be one of the oldest passages in the Bible), the Greek myth of the Amazon tribe, the chaste huntress Goddess Diana. There's another told of in Metamorphoses but can't remember the name, sorry. The genre has *very* old roots indeed.

    I disagree Tim. Modern "strong women" seem to be altogether a different species and don't spring from these roots. All of these pre-feminism women you mentioned like Deborah seem to be made of something else entirely. For example I know it's baffling but I wouldn't even label Joan of Arc as a "strong woman". Most of these women didn't go around claiming to the heavens that men and women were equal. They understood that despite their strong-headed qualities that they were still women.

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  37. A lot of interesting comments from video gamers and their experiences.

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  38. Got anything else in your arsenal? If you've got a happy traditional marriage why the angst? If you haven't, it obviously sucks *frowny face* that women won't do what you want.

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  39. If a traditional lifestyle is so attractive for women then they’ll go for it on masse, regardless of what liberal stereotypes encourage.

    Jesse, I'm happy for that to be the test as well. But it has to be from a fair starting point:

    - the cost of housing needs to be kept to a point at which a wife is able to afford to stay home
    - there needs to be at least some films and TV shows which positively represent the homemaker role
    - the tax system should be based on family income rather than personal income, since realistically that is what people live on
    - the education system should prepare girls for both options, not just for one
    - jobs competition should be on a level playing ground - no official or unofficial quotas or affirmative action programs

    I've said this before but it's worth repeating: even with all the bias in modern society toward female careerism, in outer suburban Melbourne it's still the case that the traditional family or some variation of it predominates. There are not a lot of 40-something women with kids who want to be full-on careerists. As a guesstimate I'd say it's less than 20%.

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  40. Don't careerist women just have a career till their 30 and then go traditional and make a family. They are the smart ones the dumb ones wait till they are way over 40 and discover they are undesirable.
    It annoys me as a young guy that I have to compete with so many careerist women that flood the job market for the years that are crucial for young men to establish themselves then pull out at 30 as if the entire thing was a game to them.
    A lot of companies in the cities are simply women and immigrants self promoting themselves in an endless cycle.
    I'm losing count of the companies that I see that are either just (white)women or immigrant men and women. Particularly Indians love to just hire Indian men and white women (the perverts).
    Then there are homosexuals who get really well paid jobs constantly and have no desire obviously to start a family, just another drain on resources that could go to family orientated men.

    How does a young Aussie guy aquire the wealth to have a family, its either be a tradie or go work in the mines or join the army.
    Why do Aussie guys have to be the sh!tkickers for an entire country of parasites.
    I'm just feeling blocked out of participation in Australian life. Not that I have a great desire to participate in Australian life it sickens me more than any culture at the moment. Australia is a house of cards cemented with lies.

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  41. Anon, good comment. You wrote:

    How does a young Aussie guy aquire the wealth to have a family, its either be a tradie or go work in the mines or join the army.

    Although that's exaggerated, it does represent the trend. Aussie men are being squeezed out at the top (professional courses at uni dominated by fee paying overseas students) - leaving them the harder physical labour.

    It's fortunate, at least, that some of the blue collar work still pays well here - a good tradie can still make money as can those working in the mining industry (though China is putting pressure on to open up those jobs).

    But there does exist a growing distortion in the labour market.

    It annoys me as a young guy that I have to compete with so many careerist women that flood the job market for the years that are crucial for young men to establish themselves then pull out at 30 as if the entire thing was a game to them.

    I wonder too if these women have an advantage - they can go all out doing the careerist thing in their 20s because they know they don't have to pace themselves. There's less pressure on them to find a work/life balance because they don't think they're going to be doing it for too long anyway - what they call their real life begins after they quit their career.

    To put this another way: a 20-year-old man is likely to want to take some time to enjoy himself before he really goes all out career-wise because he knows that when he does commit it's going to take up the greater portion of his life. But for a 20-year-old woman who's only in it for 10 years or so, she wants to get in as much as she can before she steps out.

    I'm just feeling blocked out of participation in Australian life. Not that I have a great desire to participate in Australian life it sickens me more than any culture at the moment. Australia is a house of cards cemented with lies.

    Anon, it's not just Australia. I'd love there to be some other Anglo country in better condition, but I don't think there is.

    So there's no option to flee and the nihilist option - of being an embittered spectator of decline getting hedonistic pleasure where you can - is a soul destroying dead end road as well.

    I'd ask you to consider two more productive strategies. The first is the immediate and personal one. If you can stay the course - get yourself as good a job as you can, stay self-confident, build up some resources, resist the demoralising influences in society - then it's still possible to outlast the others.

    For ten years I couldn't even get a permanent teaching position - I had to accept maternity leave positions. I was always in the junior position at work. But I stuck at it; my female peers have now either quit to focus on their families or are working part-time; and that now leaves me at the top of the heap. So I'm in a strong position at work, my marriage is good and I'm enjoying fatherhood. It's worth staying the course.

    Second, as the mainstream culture unravels we need to start building up an alternative.

    You will not be the only young Aussie guy who has noticed the way things are now. If we had a community of our own it would attract support.

    The problem is getting things started - people want something solid in place before they will commit.

    So my request to you is to be one of the men who helps turn things around. For the time being that just means breaking cleanly with the modern liberal culture - no longer affiliating yourself with it - and taking a long-term view of the need to gradually build up an alternative community.

    It would be a pity to have 1000 alienated men who each thought that nothing could be done, when together they could have achieved a great deal.

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  42. What's the author's sex?

    It's a good point. I've long hated action girls in books, comics, movies, videogames, tv, etc. b/c they're unrealistic and insult men by pretending a woman could be a man's superior in combat.

    But I'd never considered the situation from the female perspective: why should a woman be expected to behave butch like a dyke or look to a mannish grrl as a role model?

    Feminists pretend they speak for women and are so promoted I'd inadvertently come to expect feminist bullshit as the default stance of any interpretation of a matter that's supposedly feminine. But the truth is feminists are outcasts among women: the ugly, awkward, fat misshapen things normal females don't want to associate with, much less become. The average woman has and always will be trying to become as beautiful as she can to attract and please men.

    The shame is women once aspired to be mothers and grew up imbibing motherhood by assisting their grand/mothers and caring for younger siblings. Schools now prevent women from learning to be good mothers so all we're left with are vapid whores.

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  43. But it's probably not entirely a coincidence Elisabeth that the modern examples of 'fighting women' shows/stories mentioned on this blog almost all fall into the broad fantasy genre (even the video-gaming), which has strong roots in those older traditions I mentioned. The makers of 'Xena' can't have been entirely unaware of the Grecian myths about Amazons or the Goddess Diana (indeed as I recall the Goddesses occasionally appeared in the show).

    The television shows are not themselves historical examples but they draw on very old traditions - as art always has done.

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  44. It is true though that the cliche 'strong woman' can be tiresome and sometimes makes for caricatures rather than characters.

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  45. as far as I remember Greeks beat the Amazons.

    Not sure what that proves, the Greeks beat the Trojans as well but Homer still portrays them as honourable. I don't think the defeat of warriors in Grecian myth necessarily symbolises that the idea they represent is wrong.

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  46. Thank you for your comments Tim. Appreciated.

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  47. "Got anything else in your arsenal? If you've got a happy traditional marriage why the angst? If you haven't, it obviously sucks *frowny face* that women won't do what you want."

    Getting personal won't bring you anywhere Jesse. My marriage is none of your business anyway. I'm stating the obvious fact. You keep coming to a traditionalist site spouting leftist politically correct tripe and attack anyone who happens to disagree with your liberal utopian views, then get shocked when people point it out. I happen to care about the future of western civilisation while you care more about keeping affluent two-income life style and not hurting the wimminz feelings, that's all.

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  48. ""I don't think the defeat of warriors in Grecian myth necessarily symbolises that the idea they represent is wrong."

    As far as I remember the story, it was indeed shown as natural and proper that Amazons were beaten. Also, if Greeks thought it was normal for women to fight, why didn't they have female warriors? May be because even pagan Europeans knew better than modern film producers of Hollywood.

    "the modern examples of 'fighting women' shows/stories mentioned on this blog almost all fall into the broad fantasy genre ..."

    The movie being discussed in this very blog entry is a leftist deconstruction of a traditional fairy tale which showed Snow White as a sweet girl who took maternal care of 7 Dwarves. They took a well known story and turned it into something totally different instead. I like it how men like you continue to defend indefensible, something which the Bible itself calls abomination, but I guess as long as the heroine has nice boobs, long legs and wears this sexy fur bikini it's ok with you.

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  49. I try to apply for full time jobs rather than remain part time so I can pitch in more to my family who has been forced to rent because my mother has been the homemaker to four kids over twenty four years. A real family over the trappings of a modern mortgage rather than a home. What families do now is not a home because two people can work themselves to death and still lose that home they sacrificed even a mother raising their own children for.
    I pay board and help out around the house, watch my youngest brother and sister.

    My dad reassigns me as the one that should aspire to do it all because his firstborn son from his first marriage did not measure up.

    This was after his mother used circumstances, like supporting my mother and at the time two young children to create a distance from him and his eldest son- his first wife cheated and separated from him.
    I have let my parents know that I want to get married and have children, but I'm terrified that I will get rejected for not wanting to be a wife, mother and career woman.

    However, like some men have wisely and rightly pointed out- careers should be for those who aren't going to leave them in their thirties.

    So, I feel a sense of tremendous guilt going for these jobs where the interviewers expect one to say the company comes before everything. I think that this is a job someone who really wants to put a career first would want and I'd be selfishly taking it.

    But I feel a sense of gratitude all the same for getting to live the way I do despite the pressure because it would be so much more unsafe as a chaste single young woman living alone because I can't protect myself. I would likely live with female roommates who are far from feminine, having indiscriminate sex with men that I wouldn't trust in a crowded shopping centre much less inside a small house within the kitchen, in the small hours of the night as I grab water from the fridge.

    In high school, after living most of my life with my little brothers both of whom were younger and shorter than me, I started out a little rough and tumble. A male friend my age when I was thirteen was a fighter so we fought physically. A feminist would say that men and woman are the same, but my male friend was not the one with a sore behind and a few choice bruises.

    I learnt that girls cannot fight men on even terms without some heroic superpower and we live in the real world where they don't exist.
    Even in her fictional world, Snow White has no powers and can't overpower a man on even terms. Just the idea is setting up girls for situations where their fight will not be at thirteen with a guy who would never take it too far just to prove that he was stronger than you. It will be alone, afraid and where all the feminism in our world can't change the fact that women are physically weaker than men.

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  50. You keep coming to a traditionalist site spouting leftist politically correct tripe and attack anyone who happens to disagree with your liberal utopian views, then get shocked when people point it out. I happen to care about the future of western civilisation while you care more about keeping affluent two-income life style and not hurting the wimminz feelings, that's all.



    This sort of thing really does nothing to help your position. "You're wrong and stupid while I care about saving civilisation" is not any sort of argument. The MRA's are their own worst enemies much of the time.

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  51. Which particular story about the Amazons are you thinking of Anon?

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  52. anon:
    "It's a good point. I've long hated action girls in books, comics, movies, videogames, tv, etc. b/c they're unrealistic and insult men by pretending a woman could be a man's superior in combat."

    The occasional woman can be - BUT those women look absolutely nothing like those girly-girl Hollywood actresses, Kirsten Dunst and co, who are hyper-slender and waiflike even by normal female standards. They don't even look much like Xena's Lucy Lawless. IME they are tall, very lean, muscular - they look like men. Actual female warriors or potential warriors are (a) very rare and (b) not people that normal girls aspire to be like.

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  53. ""This sort of thing really does nothing to help your position. "You're wrong and stupid while I care about saving civilisation" is not any sort of argument. The MRA's are their own worst enemies much of the time."

    First, I'm not an MRA. Second , this was in response to a personal attack on me. Third, I made my case based on Western tradition and Christian teaching, but the response was based on women's feelings (modern women dislike homemaking so it must be OK that they abandon home and children). Fourth, the civilisation which anadons traditional sex roles is doomed. Patriarchy IS civilisation, and feminism and gender blending leads to violent matriarchal chaos.

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  54. IN the previous comment it must be "abandoned"

    Tim, I was thinking about Hercules and Amazons, and btw Wikipedia is a highly unreliable source of information, written by people with a modern liberal bias. Anyway, the story of Amazons is totally irrelevant, since we are not discussing a film about them. The original discussion was about Snow White whose character is as far from Amazons as it could be in the traditional version of the fairy tale. Snow White is a girl who throughout the story demonstrates her maternal and homemaking abilities by taking care of the 7 Dwarves, providing them with a clean house, warm meals and all sorts of comfort. That's the traditional female role. In modern films female heroine is never judged on her homemaking capacities, but more on her ability to bring home the bacon, to look hot 24 hours a day and now also to hit the target while looking sexy. I realise there is a market for such films, but I also think that there is subtle propaganda aimed at young men since most women aren't interested in action movies at all. The result of this propaganda is the fact that young men subconsciously choose women more androgynous psychologically instead of maternal types. That's why I think films like this are subversive and dangerous. It's easy to say that it's just a fantasy, but unfortunately too many people nowadays get all their information about how the world functions and all their ideas about right and wrong from TV and Hollywood movies.

    Anyway, this discussion has been going in circles so I'm not going to take part in it any more, and Jesse if I hurt your feelings I apologise.

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  55. Fourth, the civilisation which anadons traditional sex roles is doomed.


    And what do you think "traditional sex roles" are? Those of America circa 1970? 1950? 1890? Those of Saudi Arabia circa the present? The phrase "traditional sex roles" says a lot less than you seem to think it does.

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  56. The result of this propaganda is the fact that young men subconsciously choose women more androgynous psychologically instead of maternal types.

    Interesting. I have seen a few young men whom prefer women that weight less than 60 kilos (e.g. quite thin, anorexic-like physiques). Can these films be blamed for this factor?

    And what do you think "traditional sex roles" are?

    Roles which emphasize the differences between men and women and their complementary natures.

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  57. Many films seem to market the 'strong, independent, sexually liberated career woman' as mates towards men so I think this whole idea that a couple of these films are suppose to influence men has a lot of merit.

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  58. Roles which emphasize the differences between men and women and their complementary natures.


    That's not an answer. What are those roles? Should women be banned by law from holding jobs?

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  59. That's not an answer.

    The male role is to provide and protect. He is to create a secure space within which the female can care for her children.

    That's the gist of traditional sex roles, although it can be drawn out a lot more.

    If you get the principles right you can then debate the extent to which you flexibly support them in society.

    You ask for instance "Should women be banned by law from holding jobs?"

    That would be at the strictest end of upholding the principles. I've never heard a tradcon take that line.

    My own attitude is that if you removed liberalism as the ruling principle of society (autonomy) that the large majority of women would then follow their instincts to prioritise family.

    Female involvement in the paid workforce could then be organised to allow for this priority.

    For instance, say a woman really wanted to do hairdressing. Could it not be organised that her salon opened around the middle of the day when her children were at school?

    That would lessen the disruption to her family and the reduced hours would mean that she would not be competing with her husband as a provider.

    I suspect that those on the right who object to differing levels of commitment to the paid workforce do so because they have accepted the idea that we "self-actualise" through careers rather than through our necessarily gendered self.

    For a traditionalist, a man self-actualises by fulfilling his masculine nature to provide and protect - the particular job he performs as a service to his family and his society is less relevant.

    A woman self-actualises by fulfilling her feminine nature to mother children. But if she has some other talent as well to contribute to society that should be organised in a way which doesn't prevent her expressing her feminine nature via motherhood.

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  60. Fair enough anon, I'm fairly sceptical about interpretations of fairy tales and myths myself because there have been so many. (That includes your interpretation too, but I won't pursue the point because these conversations can go round in circles.)

    I do like looking at these subjects in depth but perhaps now is not the time and place as you say.

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  61. You ask for instance "Should women be banned by law from holding jobs?"


    That would be at the strictest end of upholding the principles. I've never heard a tradcon take that line.



    It's the logical conclusion of some of the more virulently anti-woman viewpoints I've encountered. I never thought you felt that way, but there are guys in the gamer/MRA camp whose thoughts are very clearly drifting in a more Saudi direction.

    Such people are a threat to the entire anti-feminist movement. It's important to stress that we're anti-feminist not because we dislike women, but because we want the best for men, women, children, and everybody.

    I wish it were possible to say "Well, that's all a given". But it's not.

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  62. Anonymous,

    no offence taken, I was just away from the computer for a while.

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  63. "Should women be banned from the workplace by law?"

    No. However it's a loaded question b/c the false premise that women are automatically present in the workplace in numbers similar to men is taken for granted.

    The natural order is for men to do various forms of work and women to mother. It has taken much robbery and social damage through schools, taxing individuals instead of homes, laws preventing employers from hiring who they wish, welfare programs requiring women be single mothers, abortion subsidies, the creation of government jobs at the expense of productive jobs, and other manipulations to cause the average to deviate as much from the norm as it has.

    Why have marriage rates fallen lower than they've ever been in America's history while divorce rates rise? B/c the government incentivises divorce for women and generations of divorcees have made the practice the new cultural standard. For men, an increasing number of those entering marriageable age (younger generation) are aware the risks of marrying far outweigh the rewards of tax breaks.

    Man tends to organize into efficient, healthy bodies. It has taken alot of work by banks and the state, institutions funded through theft, and the threat of further robbery or death against those who'd practice haler habits, to damage the people to this new degree.

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