Tuesday, April 26, 2011

Dalrock nails it

Two American women have written a book which tells women not to marry before the age of 30. They're careful not to pitch themselves to women as anti-marriage; instead, they claim that by staying single in their 20s, women will better prepare themselves for a successful marriage later on.

So what are women supposed to do while they (and their future husbands) wait (and wait and wait)? They're supposed to live the independent single girl lifestyle and:

focus on education and career and build financial stability; develop and improve your emotional health, body image, and confidence; take risks and tap into your adventurous side; create a dependable network of friends and mentor relationships; clarify and embrace your spiritual self; resolve unhealthy family dynamics and establish yourself as an independent woman.

It's an attempt to make explicit an underlying trend in liberal societies. Liberal societies emphasise the idea that women should be autonomous. One way of achieving this is to defer family commitments for as long as possible and to string out an independent career girl lifestyle.

But this has some very negative consequences. Women who have no intention of marrying in their 20s change the way they select for sexual partners and end up rewarding players or thugs, which then disrupts a family guy culture amongst men. Women who leave things to their 30s often then find it more difficult to partner as they are past their prime of youthful beauty and fertility. Women in their 30s have to race their biological clocks and often lose reproductive choice. And, most of all, living a single girl lifestyle for so long is not a good preparation for the realities of motherhood and marriage.

I won't argue the case in detail in this post, because another blogger, Dalrock, has already done a terrific job in arguing against the book in question. I highly recommend that you read his two posts:



15 comments:

  1. I wonder if there isn't something to delaying marriage? If a woman marries earlish and then gets the feminist bug she'll probably be dissapointed with her husband and look for a divorce. If she marries latter, open eyed, she might be more likely to make it work. I'd be interested to know what the marry at 30 divorce stats are like. Of course that's assuming she finds a husband, however, many men won't want to marry before 30 either.

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  2. Jesse,

    Dalrock has the divorce stats in his second post. They confirm the stats that I've posted previously here. In short, there's a heightened risk of divorce if you marry as a teenager. But after that there's not a lot of difference if you marry at 23 or 30.

    I don't think you're right in your "what if she's a feminist" scenario. The thing is, women who accept the "single girl lifestyle is the ultimate way of living" ethos and who stretch it out to their 30s, do not end up making good wives. The transition to the realities of being a wife and mother hits them with a tremendous jolt and there are resentments at having to give up what they've accepted for so long as the ideal lifestyle.

    As for what men want, men have to be careful. Men are expected in marriage to support a woman for a long time, long after her sexual peak in her 20s has passed.

    Why would a man do this? The idea is that a man shares his youthful passion and love with his wife; that they share enough of their life together and raise children together and so bond closely enough for the husband to voluntarily relinquish the advantage he gains later in life and continues to loyally work on behalf of his wife.

    That's not an easy thing for a man to do. Imagine you and your wife are 40 years old. She's no longer fertile and she's no longer in such good physical condition. You have much younger women interested in you.

    It is going to help you stay happily committed to her if she was able to give you the children you wanted; if she was there to give herself to you physically when you needed that most; if you have a history of shared memories stretching back through the years that you don't want to lose; and if she has had time to transition to the "good wife" persona for a sufficient number of years.

    It's possible to do this, I think if you're a 30-year-old man and you marry a 25-year-old woman. But what's the advantage of waiting that long? Are you going to stay celibate for that long? If not, are you going to accept a culture of promiscuity amongst women? If so, how are you going to overcome the destructive side to such a culture?

    I would have thought that most men could be ready to marry at 25. That's enough time to let your hair down a bit, to mature into your adult personality, to get an education and to be ready to embark on a career, to have travelled etc.

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  3. Clearly marrying late is also a sign of wifely disobedience.

    www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/019192.html

    My comment is under the name "Alissa". Cheers.

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  4. I'm sure that a book on the goodness of eating lots of candy would sell well, too, especially to people who are already eating lots of candy.

    This book amounts to a big dose of confirmation bias.

    For the conspiracy minded, one can see this book as an attempt to get other young women to imitate the authors, thereby affecting the larger population of young women -- if all women were sluts, then men would have to settle down with sluts no matter what their innate preferences.

    Pick a reason. I find this book to be a symptom of problems within modern women, and not much more.

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  5. Mark Richardson
    The thing is, women who accept the "single girl lifestyle is the ultimate way of living" ethos and who stretch it out to their 30s, do not end up making good wives. The transition to the realities of being a wife and mother hits them with a tremendous jolt and there are resentments at having to give up what they've accepted for so long as the ideal lifestyle.

    If memory serves, this has been pointed out to you a time or three, generally in reply to one of your "just get married" orders. Good of you to notice, finally.

    Why would a man do this? The idea is that a man shares his youthful passion and love with his wife; that they share enough of their life together and raise children together and so bond closely enough for the husband to voluntarily relinquish the advantage he gains later in life and continues to loyally work on behalf of his wife.

    Unless, of course, she EatBetrayLoves him once he has enough capital for it to be worthwhile.

    That's not an easy thing for a man to do. Imagine you and your wife are 40 years old. She's no longer fertile and she's no longer in such good physical condition. You have much younger women interested in you.

    This is true also, and is the flip side of EatBetrayLove. A man, even in his 40's or 50's, who has taken care of himself and who has learned the truth about women via Game has many more options than his wife does if she EatBetrayLoves him. Many women learn this the hard way, thanks to feminism.

    It's possible to do this, I think if you're a 30-year-old man and you marry a 25-year-old woman. But what's the advantage of waiting that long? Are you going to stay celibate for that long? If not, are you going to accept a culture of promiscuity amongst women? If so, how are you going to overcome the destructive side to such a culture?

    The advantage is obvious for women: they get to ride the infamous carousel, then "settle", bear a child or two, then EatBetrayLove the beta they "settled" for, turning him into an ATM to be tapped.

    So the advantage is obvious, in at least the material sense, women can obtain the sperm and resources they desire with a minimal number of years actually having sex with a beta.

    It doesn't have to make sense, not at all, because it really doesn't make sense in the long run.

    Ah,that reminds me, this book will serve another useful purpose: as with "EatBetrayLove", its mere presence on the desk or bookshelf of a woman is a huge, glaring, warning to any man: "Run Away Now!".

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  6. Feminists have tried to sell female careerism using the 'higher female education leads to lower divorce rates' statistic but it is a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

    It is much more likely that highly educated women divorce less because they have either little to gain or more to lose or they need a man's income to maintain their lifestyle.
    This is a possibility that is supported by the publication "'These Boots are Made for Walking': Why Most Divorce Filers are Women" which considers female divorce filing as 'rational behavior, based on spouses' relative power in the marriage, their opportunities following divorce, and their anticipation of custody.'

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  7. If you're a career women you might not necessarily be a slut or a party girl. For every woman who's like that there's another who isn't. Consequently it doesn't necessarily follow that pursuing a career means that you'll necessarily pursue a "single girl lifestyle".

    One of the issues with traditional marriage is that its based to a degree on dependence. The woman is dependant on the man for her economic and possibly to a degree her emotional security and the man is dependant on her for domestic happiness and sexual access, or at least should be. We know today that that dependence is much weaker. A woman need not rely economically on the man because of her ability to work or gain resources through divorce. Also a man may not rely on his wife for sexual access due to a general lowering of moral standards on that front. Consequently the traditional marriage formula is on shakier ground.

    Dependence is also not entirely a good thing. If your partner lets you down you have relatively few options. It also might encourage a lazy attitude to your partner, eg "I'm married now so I can let myself go, what's he going to do about it?" or alternatively "she's my wife now therefore so what if I ignore her, what's she going to do about it?".

    If you as a man marry at 30 you have a degree of economic and emotional security. You've developed your skills and can stand up to a degree to the trials and tribulations of life, whether they be practical or emotional, which can make you an attractive prospect to a woman. You're also likely to know what you want and may not look at the world with excessively rose coloured or unrealistic glasses. A woman at 30 may have developed many of these same confidences and traits, and this can also make her appealing to a man. Additionally she is not yet over child bearing age or unattractive. Therefore I wouldn't write off career women at 30, although I acknowledge that a party girl lifestyle is not a good preparation for marriage.

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  8. Jesse, that's a well written comment. But I refuse to believe that we should *start* family formation when a woman is in the last period of her fertility.

    Look at it this way. The woman gets to 30 and decides it's time. How long will it take her to meet someone? We've usually experienced a decline in our social networks by then. Some of the people we meet will be married. Others will be cynical and damaged. Some will continue to be players.

    How is the woman to know which guy will string her along and which won't? Which one is serious about wanting a family and which isn't?

    But let's say things go really well and she meets the right guy after a year. She's now 31. So she and Mr Right need to go out for a year to test the relationship. She's now 32. It goes well and they get engaged. They have a very short engagement of only 6 months. She's 32 and a half. They marry and wait six months before trying for kids. She's 33.

    They then try for kids and she is fortunate to get pregnant after a few months. There's no miscarriage. She has her first child at 34. She breastfeeds for a year and recuperates.

    She's now 35 and her more secure period of fertility is over. It's now a game of chance. Could she be lucky and go on to have more children? Yes. Of course, that's possible. But she's also in the zone where she might have left it too late.

    30 is very late for a woman to start thinking about family formation. She needs to get her act together earlier than this. Even a few years earlier gives her much more secure options.

    When women try to have families in their mid to late 30s, there is a lot of tension involved. When my wife finally managed to get pregnant we had to tiptoe around telling people in our social circle because of the jealousies and hurts it can occasion amongst those who have missed out.

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  9. "If you're a career women you might not necessarily be a slut or a party girl. For every woman who's like that there's another who isn't."

    More often than not women who pursue a career girl lifestyle have been indoctrinated by feminism and liberalism at the colleges and universities they have been to. Sometimes they may not be sluts but that is rare. Their curriculum sends messages that marriage is obsolote and bigoted and that sexual purity is repressive and wrong. It also tends glorify divorce and adultery as freedom from restrictive norms. They usually do tend to pursue a single girl lifestyle where they leave marriage late, childbearing late, are individualistic and many other character traits. There is also the concept of "eros love" and if the person doesn't make you excited as you first saw him then leave him.

    "Therefore I wouldn't write off career women at 30, although I acknowledge that a party girl lifestyle is not a good preparation for marriage."

    I would say that she should have had her first child by then. Women should start pursuing husbands at 18 and think of marriage somewhere between 20-28.

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  10. @Jesse: "A woman at 30 may have developed many of these same confidences and traits, and this can also make her appealing to a man. Additionally she is not yet over child bearing age or unattractive. Therefore I wouldn't write off career women at 30, although I acknowledge that a party girl lifestyle is not a good preparation for marriage."

    Lol, speak for yourself. I'm in my late thirties and I don't consider a woman who older than about 28 useful for anything other than pump & dump. The only women I take seriously as marriage prospects are in their mid-twenties.

    The only valuable things women bring to the table in marriage are youth, fertility, attractiveness and non-bitchiness... and women in their early thirties don't have any of those.

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  11. Thanks for the compliment and the link!

    This whole topic really astounds me. First, I still can't believe the authors were so intellectually dishonest in how they presented the stats. Didn't they think anyone would ever check? And knowing that the stats essentially destroyed their case, why did they continue pushing it with such dogmatism?

    The other part of this which is fascinating is how many young women are banking on this plan today. When I have looked at the census data, it is clear that despite all the "marry him" and "man up" carping, white women in their 30s today are married at roughly the same rates as the same demographic ten years ago. Roughly 85% of all 35 year old white women have married today (90% of 40 year old white women). All of the noise is coming from the remaining 10-15%. The shift is women who are in their 20s today. When that cohort reaches their 30s and finds it difficult to marry en masse is when the real gnashing of teeth will start.

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  12. Fyi I just posted a comment and I think blogger may have flagged it as spam because it had a link in it.

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  13. One thing's for sure, if you marry at 30 you're not going to have a large family. Yes you make a very good point about the timing and the tightness of margins Mark. I guess one of the issues for not marrying earlier is why not? If you're out just to have fun then that certainly isn't a good preparation for a stable life or for finding the right kind of guy. We still have the issue of divorce though. The prospect of low fertility is a real concern, however, people have a legitimate aim in wanting to avoid divorce, and its possible with all the temptations of modern life that you need a deal of maturity to deal with them. I would suggest that the current flakey/modern ambition of having a picture perfect wedding and then a perfect live is fairly unrealistic and can add to the divorce rates.

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  14. Overall, this advice might produce a few positive things for society. If liberal, feminist women wait until they are in their 30's to marry, and half their good egg-cells are gone, while conservative Christian women are having babies with their husbands, more of the population may end up with conservative values.

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