Monday, November 08, 2010

German Minister for Women criticises feminism

Here's an interesting development that Alte alerted me to. In Germany the Federal Minister of Family Affairs, Senior Citizens, Women and Youth is a 33-year-old woman named Kristina Schröder. She is affiliated with the Christian Democratic Union.

Usually those who head the ministries for women in Western countries are orthodox feminists. But not Kristina Schröder. She has made some criticisms of radical feminism; has argued that women are paid less because of the fields they choose to study; has rejected affirmative action quotas; and wants the advancement of boys to be a focus of her ministry.

The most important of these departures from feminist orthodoxy is her recognition that pay differentials can be explained in part by the different choices that men and women make when it comes to fields of study and work and that it's unreasonable to expect women who study humanities to end up being paid as much as men who take on more economically oriented, technical vocations.

She is not a victim, in other words, of the usual reflex to blame the situation on discrimination or sexism.

I don't know enough about her politics to explain why she has broken with the orthodoxy or even how consistently she has broken with it. But it's a refreshing change from what we'd normally expect to hear from ministers for women.

Here's a rough translation of the Spiegel article (did a bit of German at uni):

Family Minister Kristina Schröder is sharpening her conservative profile - and is taking down (?) part of the feminist movement. "I believe that at least early feminism overlooked in part that partnership and children bestow happiness," said the CDU politician to the Spiegel.

The youngest minister of the black-yellow federal government doesn't spare from her criticisim the icon of the German women's movement, Alice Schwarzer. Quite a few of her theses are too radical, said Schröder. "For example, that heterosexual intercourse is scarcely possible without oppressing women. To that I can only say: Sorry, that's wrong." She adds, "It is absurd, when something that is basic for humanity and its survival is defined as oppressive. That would mean that society couldn't continue without the oppression of women."

It was a mistake of a radical current of the women's movement to reject relationships between men and women, continued Schröder. "That homosexuality should be the solution to female disadvantage I didn't find really persuasive."

The minister rejects advancing women in careers through coercive state measures such as quotas. A quota would be "a capitulation of politics" (?). At the same time she allocated to women some of the blame for often not earning as much as men. "The truth looks like this: Many women like to study German studies or humanities, men in contrast electrical engineering. - and that has consequences for wages. We can't forbid companies to pay electrical engineers better than German studies graduates.

The Minister for Women announced that a focus of her politics in future will be the advancement of boys, because they had fallen behind the scholastic achievement of girls for some time.

Politics has culpably neglected boys and men's issues. It was not only necessary that more men should work in the future as teachers in primary schools. The educational content also ought to change. "Do we write enough dictation with football stories? Boys are interested in that. Or is it always about butterflies and ponies?"

44 comments:

  1. What are they putting in the water in Germany? Can we get some here?

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  2. and is taking down (?)
    "settling scores", but "taking down" is fine

    without oppressing women
    "Without subjugating women" would be a better translation. She's criticizing the meme that "all heterosexual intercourse is rape", and that homosexuality is preferable over heterosexuality. She is saying that just because a woman is put in a submissive position during sexual intercourse does not mean that she is being harmed or subjugated by participating in the intercourse.

    It is a fine distinction she is making, but an important one, as it is the basis for radical feminist thought (i.e. the "personal being political", sexual subjugation leading to societal subjugation). Most German women have never felt particularly subjugated, anyway, as it is not in the German tradition to oppress their women. Which is why a lot of the comments sound bewildered. They've probably never even heard of such a meme, and are wondering why she even brought it up. I suppose it's a supportive reaction to the recent anti-feminism summit in Switzerland.

    "a capitulation of politics" (?)
    failure of politics

    In other words, she is saying that instituting a quota would be a political failure. Either there is a less coercive method for achieving equality in the workplace, or there might simply be natural or common-sense reasons for the inequality (one of which she goes on to name).

    Her naming electrical engineering is especially interesting, because in that field women are very rare but generally paid more than men and are often promoted at a faster rate. That was something my male colleagues used to complain about. They get sent out to do the hard work while the female engineers get to hob-nob with the management.

    Very good translation. I should have translated it for you, but I was distracted by the Wise thread. And also just a bit lazy.

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  3. "Politics has culpably neglected boys and men's issues. It was not only necessary that more men should work in the future as teachers in primary schools. The educational content also ought to change. "Do we write enough dictation with football stories? Boys are interested in that. Or is it always about butterflies and ponies?""

    I can understand a bit where the MRA's are coming from because here we have a woman standing up for men's issues, (as well as making other points) rather than a man. It sort of gives the lie to the argument that women are the submissive sex.

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  4. Reporting from the other side. Our World: The Age of Dissimulation

    "Hamas movement’s “foreign minister” Mahmoud al- Zahar told the Christian West, “You do not live like human beings. You do not [even] live like animals. You accept homosexuality. And now you criticize us?”

    Al-Zahar also made the case for Islamic feminism. As he put it, “We are the ones who respect women and honor women ... not you. You use women as an animal. She has one husband and hundreds of thousands of boyfriends. You don’t know who is the father of your sons, because of the way you respect women.”

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  5. Its funny to know what precisely the Islamic/arabic attitude to women is. We know they like to come across as morally superior but when they're in a western country they generally crack onto everything that moves and treat the country like a big brothel. They're also notorious for having sex with men.

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  6. when they're in a western country they generally crack onto everything that moves and treat the country like a big brothel

    Yes, but that just underscores their own moral superiority. If they can treat your country like a brothel, then your women must be whores.

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  7. :-) I just couldn't resist the flawless symmetry of the underlying argument.

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  8. Well, you only need to look at her. Feminists don't usually look like that.

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  9. Jesse7:

    "I can understand a bit where the MRA's are coming from because here we have a woman standing up for men's issues, (as well as making other points) rather than a man. It sort of gives the lie to the argument that women are the submissive sex."

    No. She can say these things because she is a powerful woman. Women can criticise feminism more easily than men for obvious reasons. Men can only do it anonymously, or if they are untouchable. John Paul II did it a bit; although he eventually changed his tune for some reason, and in the latter part of his reign was quite the feminist.

    Very few men are going to be willing to publicly attack feminism. Feminists are not noted for their tolerance and there are real dangers. When Tony Abbott was less than enthusiastic about feminism, the Australian elites and the premier women's magazine tried to damage his standing politically. He had real guts and a very thick skin. Most male politicians pander to feminists hard.

    I think the German Minister is an intelligent woman, who feels she can tell a few truths because she has nothing to prove and nothing to lose.

    I have always thought that feminists like Andrea Dworkin have a point about intercourse. But they seem to see things from a curiously male point of view. And it is not as if they have converted many women. In a world of Karen Owens, it does not seem that women are fleeing from the phallus. They seem positively anxious to impale themselves on it.

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  10. LOL, David. Andrea does have a point, but just feels good. Subjugation, smudgugation.

    At any rate, the argument -- even if true -- is backward. Sexual subjugation doesn't lead to social subjugation, but social subjugation can lead to sexual submission (by making the men seem more attractive). But in that case the surrender is completely voluntary, so it still can't be considered subjugation (forced submission).

    I think it's actually very hard for men to subjugate women, on a societal scale. It takes a lot of effort, and men will usually only engage in such an activity if they are truly desperate (such as extreme deprivation, social chaos, or war). Usually they have to enlist the help of the older women to achieve it (as in Titus 2), because fertile women have so much social power and influence and are naturally fickle.

    Furthermore, when speaking of female subjugation one would have to look at the broader society. I can't really think of any time or place when women were truly subjugated and their men weren't worse off, which should be the measure. What looks like subjugation from the outside is often intended as protection.

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  11. David,

    I agree that men attacking feminism can be problematic but I was refering to the last point of her statement where she says there should be more male primary school teachers and more male subject matter in class. We as men should be able to make these arguments ourselves and not rely on women to make them for us.

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  12. She's coming under attack now: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,728201,00.html

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  13. I've just found the original interview with Kristina Schröder in English.

    It's not that she's jettisoned feminism entirely. But she's dropped some of the more unreasonable ideological aspects of feminism.

    For instance, she doesn't believe that gender is an oppressive social construct:

    I don't agree with a core statement by most feminists, the statement by Simone de Beauvoir: "One is not born a woman, one becomes one." Even as a schoolgirl I wasn't convinced by the claim that gender has nothing to do with biology and is only shaped by one's environment.

    Which leads on to this:

    SPIEGEL: Did you wear miniskirts and high heels when you were a school girl?

    Schröder: That's not my style but I have indeed always liked to dress in a feminine way.

    SPIEGEL: And you were never worried that by doing so you were submitting to the clothing rules of a patriarchal society?

    Schröder: To be honest: No!

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  14. I should try to explain why Kristina Schröder's views are significant.

    Liberalism claims to be about choice. But liberalism doesn't usually allow people to choose traditional goods.

    Why? If you believe that people should be self-defining, then you won't like the idea that there are hard-wired sex characteristics.

    But if you think that there are no such hard-wired qualities, then men and women should on average choose the same things. There would be no reason for men to take on a protector/provider role in the family and women a nurturer role.

    Also, if you want people to self-define, then the main "field of play" will be careers. After all, family relationships are more about stable commitments to others or inherited biological relationships. Nor do family roles bring us the power to self-determine through money, status and power in the same way that careers potentially can.

    Kristina Schröder has gone part of the way (and I stress, only part of the way) to dropping some of this liberal orthodoxy.

    First, she accepts that gender is not a social construct. Once you accept this then you can more freely accept differences in the choices people make.

    Second, she emphasises in her interview that it is not career alone which is what fulfils us in life, but also family relationships.

    So even though she clearly does still have some feminist attitudes, she has edged closer to a position in which it would be thought legitimate to choose traditional goods.

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  15. "SPIEGEL: And you were never worried that by doing so you were submitting to the clothing rules of a patriarchal society?"

    Its interesting this statement wouldn't be used in an interview in Australia. Its obvious that such language is used in feminist academic discourse but I can't say I've really heard "patriarchy" used in the standard press. The focus instead is on more rights for women.

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  16. We have a female PM in Australia now. Much has been said about the fact that this is a historical first. Abbott in reply said that in New South Wales we have, "A female Mayor, a female Premier, a female Governor, a female Governor General, and a female Queen". The last was said to some laughter. So for a historical first it seems they're well and truly ensconced. The point is we have the potential to be totally dominated by women politically because they are seen as less controversial figures politically. See the recent dominance of Palin and other women in the Tea Party.

    I don't mind women in politics. But I don't want us to become a mother society with our female leaders kissing us on the forehead and saying there there.

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  17. More from her critics (in English). A woman from the FDP (my party!) is supporting her, but everyone else thinks she sounds deranged.

    I think she sounds reasonable and empathetic. Her Spiegel interviewer was a bit of a snarky jerk, though.

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  18. Jesse7

    Yes, and there was much excitement when Maggie Thatcher was PM in England; and when all the top executive positions were held for a while by females in New Zealand a few years ago; and when the first Chief Minister in the ACT was a woman; and on and on.

    It is all just smoke and mirrors. Randomness. The most telling thing about Julia Gillard is that she is widely and correctly perceived as an affirmative action baby, a "ring-in" who got the job after a man was dumped. She just squeaked in as PM, and many people think she was and is personally disliked by the wider community. She is also having real trouble establishing herself.

    I know I am anti-feminist, but I don't think I am alone in finding the woman quite forgettable. I literally can't remember who is PM these days, sometimes.

    Australian female politicians have a history of crashing and burning.

    Female politicians have been the fashion for a few years now, but they will prove to be just as liable to corruption and incompetence as the men. It is sometimes forgotten that there was a surge in women entering the Australian parliament shortly after federation, IIRC, but the numbers subsequently dropped off. Also, the number of Congresswomen in America has fallen after the last election.

    Trends are not destiny.

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  19. David Collard said,

    "Trends are not destiny."

    Ok interesting. I think there might be a little bit more to it though. If being a politician means being personally engaging , caring, empathetic and overseeing a welfare state, women will have an advantage. If being a politician means making demanding decisions and potentially ensuring the survival of the country, then that will benefit men. Remember Thatcher was the "Iron Lady" rather than the feminine matron.

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  20. Can any reader of this website recommend a book that deals, specifically and authoritatively, with the relentless feminisation of churches - and of ecclesial culture in general - in the Western world since the 1970s?

    Existing surveys of feminist malice, surveys like Spreading Misandry, have their clear usefulness. But they're dealing for 99% of the time with purely secular phenomena (e.g. TV shows).

    I'd love to find out if someone has written the prodigiously well-documented equivalent of The Black Book of Communism to indict the whole girlie-church, Kumbaya mindset across the board (i.e. not just among Catholicism or Anglicanism, say). Philip Jenkins's books, for all their solid demographic information about Eurochristianity versus Asian and African Christianity, don't appear to deal with the femocrat issue at all - except in fleeting passages.

    How many millions upon millions of believers, especially male believers, have been driven away from church attendance over the last four decades because their clergy - even when their physiques are ostensibly male - are just drowning in mental oestrogen?

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  21. Could you please write an article about this:
    Sweden is going crazy. The government paid for this song quote: "hey blond girl, take a black man between your legs and mix it up." At 1:04 Minute you can see a blond girl singing about the pride and beauty of Sweden while having sex with a black man. Watch it and show it to everyone you know.

    This is genocide of whites!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u-mihtgTm0&feature=player_embedded

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  22. The classic book on the feminization of Christianity is Leon Podles "The Church Impotent: The feminization of Chistianity".

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  23. This is all very heartening news, & it's been a joy to read such helpful & intelligent comments where i was expecting a torrent of slavering feminist abuse. There is perhaps hope for sanity yet.

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  24. Thanks for the Leon Podles tip-off, I shall try to track down that book, which I didn't know about before.

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  25. Certainly male attendance at church is the problem. The Australian Catholic Church held an inquiry into women a few years ago, at which time a few people noted that it was men who seemed to have lost interest. Women just tend to be more religious than men. As for the clergy, clergymen do tend to be more feminine than normal. It goes with the job, its being very much a people profession. Also, many clergy, even Catholic bishops, these days are actually homosexual, and have a deficient attitude to women.

    Other priests are scared of church feminists, or of the feminist media, or they simply unthinkingly pedestalise women. A lot of them seem to think that Original Sin does not apply to women. JPII had a bad case of this, in my view.

    They often have little idea of the reality of day-to-day living with women, and how extremely flakey they really are. The Bible is full of warnings about the need for women to be kept in line, and to watch their step, but most modern clerics ignore all that.

    The social gospel has been big in all the churches of late, and that tends to lead to a sort of progressivism and utopianism about human nature.

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  26. "Women just tend,", Mr Collard writes, "to be more religious than men."

    Well, more churchgoing, certainly; that's been shown time after time by surveys. More religious, though? Not sure about that. I suspect that what has driven men out of the churches is not loss of religion on their part, but simple fear of being subjected to feminists' "intellectual" (anti-intellectual really) terrorism.

    Moreover, priests - thank God - were by no means always less masculine than the default male mode. I'm not that old (I'm 48) but I have fairly happy memories of encountering - in my 1960s pagan childhood - quite a large number of Catholic priests, belonging to a type that's now almost as extinct as the Great Auk. All of those priests were distinguished by robust common sense, toughness of spirit, and rather more in the way of sheer intelligence and scholarship than they were usually given credit for having.

    They were invariably of working-class backgrounds, which might well have helped them stay sane. Michael Rose's book Goodbye Good Men - admittedly concerned with America rather than Australia - indicates that the sodomites didn't really get a stranglehold on the seminaries and the bishoprics till the 1970s at the earliest. That fits with my recollection, and it's entirely compatible with the overall embourgeoisement of Western Catholicism at around the same period.

    Moreover, Mr Collard emphasises the social gospel; I'm not sure that such a gospel is nearly as widespread now as it was in the 1980s heyday of so-called "liberation theology." Of course the standard-issue Catholic deadhead witters on about climate change, freeing refugees, yada yada yada; but this need not mean anything more sinister than moronism, welfare-state helotry, and a childish trust in the newspapers. Such yapping could stop tomorrow, and still the average man would be made to feel bitterly unwelcome in the average Catholic church (I can't speak with any up-to-date knowledge of Australian Protestantism).

    Incidentally some of the most vicious pansies in modern Australian Catholicism are far from being left-wing. They would consider themselves (and be considered by others as) right-of-centre, albeit right-liberals rather than traditional conservatives.

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  27. Well, you only need to look at her. Feminists don't usually look like that.

    Eh? Lots of feminists are drab and mousy.

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  28. A S Redding

    I have gone to Mass man and boy (as Dorrie Evans used to say) for about 50 years. I was an altar boy in the old Latin Mass, then in the English mass. These days I attend mostly Latin Masses, although I am not averse to English masses, and went to them for many years.

    Has the Australian Catholic Church been feminised? A little. Females have slowly crept into the sanctuary. First as emergency lectors, then as lectors, then as extraordinary ministers of the eucharist and altar girls (and the last of these capitulations was purely down to John Paul II, who thereby rewarded disobedience). I didn't move to the Latin Mass to escape this, but I don't miss it.

    I suppose I have been lucky, but I have never been to a mass that was really bad, heretical sermon, feminist language for God, that kind of thing. I do agree that priests are less "manly" than they were once, although there are exceptions, in the Cardinal Pell mould.

    I had a friend who spent some time in a Dominican novitiate in Melbourne, and he told me stories of flaming gayness there. This would have been in 1980s. He eventually became a priest, but in the diocesan context.

    I don't think fathers and husbands get much support from the Church these days. I have heard sermons supporting our distinct role, but these have mostly been given by Latin Mass priests (the latest by a young FSSP priest). It is not so much that the Church supports feminism; it is more that it does not expressly support traditional sex roles, except by (muted) example.

    On the positive side, the continuing masculine role of the priest, and the disapproval of contraception and abortion have been noteworthy. The Australian Church is stronger on the latter than on the former, although Cardinal Pell had the balls to attack contraception a few years ago, and won some grudging respect even in the secular press.

    (I still remember the generous coverage that SBS gave the recent Papal visit.)

    I used to review books for a Catholic newspaper; and I had some of my remarks contra contraception and pro husbandly headship "spiked" by the editor. It was clear to me that he knew on which side his bread was buttered. It is not so much that the Church no longer believes some of these things, they are just highly muted.

    Most of the Catholic women I know seem still to see their husbands as in some sense Head of the Household. Even my own wife, when she is angry with me, rants about this, in a way which suggests to me that "the lady doth protest too much", and that she has actually internalised the same message. She certainly acts like it. Of course, Australian culture has always been rather masculine, and this helps.

    I thought the canonisation of Mother Mary MacKillop was a very good thing, and timely, for the Australian Catholic Church. It was a good news story, and what the Catholic Church "does" best - great spectacle, mystery and human interest. I noticed that Australia Post are selling DVDs on her, "A Saint for All Australians".

    It is important for Traditionalists and Conservatives to keep their morale high, as it should be if we believe we have the Truth. Yes, the Church is not the tough-minded institution it was when I was a little boy in Melbourne being strapped by Christian Brothers at St Kevin's; but not all the change has been bad. I would venture that the Catholic Church in Australia is actually in a relatively healthy and strong position. I would rather live here as a Catholic than in some post-Catholic place like Quebec.

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  29. A S Redding

    I have gone to Mass man and boy (as Dorrie Evans used to say) for about 50 years. I was an altar boy in the old Latin Mass, then in the English mass. These days I attend mostly Latin Masses, although I am not averse to English masses, and went to them for many years.

    Has the Australian Catholic Church been feminised? A little. Females have slowly crept into the sanctuary. First as emergency lectors, then as lectors, then as extraordinary ministers of the eucharist and altar girls (and the last of these capitulations was purely down to John Paul II, who thereby rewarded disobedience). I didn't move to the Latin Mass to escape this, but I don't miss it.

    I suppose I have been lucky, but I have never been to a mass that was really bad, heretical sermon, feminist language for God, that kind of thing. I do agree that priests are less "manly" than they were once, although there are exceptions, in the Cardinal Pell mould.

    I had a friend who spent some time in a Dominican novitiate in Melbourne, and he told me stories of flaming gayness there. This would have been in 1980s. He eventually became a priest, but in the diocesan context.

    I don't think fathers and husbands get much support from the Church these days. I have heard sermons supporting our distinct role, but these have mostly been given by Latin Mass priests (the latest by a young FSSP priest). It is not so much that the Church supports feminism; it is more that it does not expressly support traditional sex roles, except by (muted) example.

    On the positive side, the continuing masculine role of the priest, and the disapproval of contraception and abortion have been noteworthy. The Australian Church is stronger on the latter than on the former, although Cardinal Pell had the balls to attack contraception a few years ago, and won some grudging respect even in the secular press.

    (I still remember the generous coverage that SBS gave the recent Papal visit.)

    I used to review books for a Catholic newspaper; and I had some of my remarks contra contraception and pro husbandly headship "spiked" by the editor. It was clear to me that he knew on which side his bread was buttered. It is not so much that the Church no longer believes some of these things, they are just highly muted.

    Most of the Catholic women I know seem still to see their husbands as in some sense Head of the Household. Even my own wife, when she is angry with me, rants about this, in a way which suggests to me that "the lady doth protest too much", and that she has actually internalised the same message. She certainly acts like it. Of course, Australian culture has always been rather masculine, and this helps.

    I thought the canonisation of Mother Mary MacKillop was a very good thing, and timely, for the Australian Catholic Church. It was a good news story, and what the Catholic Church "does" best - great spectacle, mystery and human interest. I noticed that Australia Post are selling DVDs on her, "A Saint for All Australians".

    It is important for Traditionalists and Conservatives to keep their morale high, as it should be if we believe we have the Truth. Yes, the Church is not the tough-minded institution it was when I was a little boy in Melbourne being strapped by Christian Brothers at St Kevin's; but not all the change has been bad. I would venture that the Catholic Church in Australia is actually in a relatively healthy and strong position. I would rather live here as a Catholic than in some post-Catholic place like Quebec.

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  30. A S Redding

    I have gone to Mass man and boy (as Dorrie Evans used to say) for about 50 years. I was an altar boy in the old Latin Mass, then in the English mass. These days I attend mostly Latin Masses, although I am not averse to English masses, and went to them for many years.

    Has the Australian Catholic Church been feminised? A little. Females have slowly crept into the sanctuary. First as emergency lectors, then as lectors, then as extraordinary ministers of the eucharist and altar girls (and the last of these capitulations was purely down to John Paul II, who thereby rewarded disobedience). I didn't move to the Latin Mass to escape this, but I don't miss it.

    I suppose I have been lucky, but I have never been to a mass that was really bad, heretical sermon, feminist language for God, that kind of thing. I do agree that priests are less "manly" than they were once, although there are exceptions, in the Cardinal Pell mould.

    I had a friend who spent some time in a Dominican novitiate in Melbourne, and he told me stories of flaming gayness there. This would have been in 1980s. He eventually became a priest, but in the diocesan context.

    I don't think fathers and husbands get much support from the Church these days. I have heard sermons supporting our distinct role, but these have mostly been given by Latin Mass priests (the latest by a young FSSP priest). It is not so much that the Church supports feminism; it is more that it does not expressly support traditional sex roles, except by (muted) example.

    On the positive side, the continuing masculine role of the priest, and the disapproval of contraception and abortion have been noteworthy. The Australian Church is stronger on the latter than on the former, although Cardinal Pell had the balls to attack contraception a few years ago, and won some grudging respect even in the secular press.

    (I still remember the generous coverage that SBS gave the recent Papal visit.)

    I used to review books for a Catholic newspaper; and I had some of my remarks contra contraception and pro husbandly headship "spiked" by the editor. It was clear to me that he knew on which side his bread was buttered. It is not so much that the Church no longer believes some of these things, they are just highly muted.

    Most of the Catholic women I know seem still to see their husbands as in some sense Head of the Household. Even my own wife, when she is angry with me, rants about this, in a way which suggests to me that "the lady doth protest too much", and that she has actually internalised the same message. She certainly acts like it. Of course, Australian culture has always been rather masculine, and this helps.

    I thought the canonisation of Mother Mary MacKillop was a very good thing, and timely, for the Australian Catholic Church. It was a good news story, and what the Catholic Church "does" best - great spectacle, mystery and human interest. I noticed that Australia Post are selling DVDs on her, "A Saint for All Australians".

    It is important for Traditionalists and Conservatives to keep their morale high, as it should be if we believe we have the Truth. Yes, the Church is not the tough-minded institution it was when I was a little boy in Melbourne being strapped by Christian Brothers at St Kevin's; but not all the change has been bad. I would venture that the Catholic Church in Australia is actually in a relatively healthy and strong position. I would rather live here as a Catholic than in some post-Catholic place like Quebec.

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  31. Sorry about the triple post. Glitch.

    Drab and mousy? That woman is not drab and mousy. She is quite cute.

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  32. Its probably the case that the biggest supports of contraception and abortion are men or single men. So women can arguably benefit from a lack of these as it supports their role as family member and mother. Given that it doesn't necessarily follow that the presence of these means that the Church isn't feminised. Just an opinion.

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  33. I often think Traditionalists don't give enough credit to feminists, in the sense that these women are not stupid about where their interest lies, and they can reason or intuit it quite readily. Feminists are right, by their lights, to hate the Catholic Church. It is the only major societal force (with the possible exception of evolutionary psychology as a science) which still holds that men and women are not fundamentally the same. And that expects that women will primarily be mothers, as indicated by her official attitude to contraception and abortion.

    I have a nice young lady who works for me, and she took offence for some reason about something she considered too constraining on expectations about women. She started ranting about Catholic attitudes, until I gently reminded her that I, her boss, am a Catholic. She just intuitively knew that the Church still believes that men and women have different roles. The Catholic Church still stands for something, and feminists are right to recognise her as their most formidable cultural enemy.

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  34. Men of old were allowed to drink and fight. Well it wasn't so positively discouraged. Now we see "little pinkie" adds to encourage men not to stuff up on the roads. (For the American audience this is an advertising campaign that shows attractive women putting up their little pinkies and implying that men who speed on the road have small wangs. The billboards are all over the place). Footballer player after football player is humiliated for some sexual or other misadventure. Tiger Woods is treated like a high criminal.

    We hear a lot about game of late but you'd have to say that sleeping with a lot of women is not the best sign of masculinity. Especially if you do it by acting like a dandy poseur or liar.

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  35. The Catholic Church is the biggest critic of women as careerists, that's true.

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  36. I don't think drinking, fighting and screwing are great signs of manhood. Some of these footballers are dickheads.

    The "pinkie" ads did not just show attractive young women, but also older women and young men doing it to imply that bad male drivers have small erections. I thought the ads were pretty lame, and I doubt they did much good, because they are based on a fib. Aggressive drivers are actually likely to be more masculine than average, and women are likely to find them attractive. A better way to discourage bad male driving was another Australian ad that had a young man accidentally killing another driver, and had a magnificently powerful moment when a very tough looking fireman walked past him after the accident with a look of contempt on his face. That will affect men. Men seek the respect of other men, not that of crude little old ladies waving their little fingers in reference to an erection. One tends to have the ribald thought that old ducks like that probably haven't seen an erection any time recently.

    The way to influence men is not to shame them, especially not to shame them about being men, but to appeal to the best aspects of masculinity, to show that they can do better. "Real men don't hit women" is a good slogan for that reason, and you will notice that manginas didn't like the message, because it implied that there were "real men"!

    On "game", I like it as a tool for husbands to use. It has worked wonders in my marriage, because I understand better why some things work with a woman, and some things don't. And it is not what the culture tells you, that's for sure. I have always had some natural "game", and I have been able to add to this. It is almost second nature now. Women, wives, are pretty nuts a lot of the time; and even realising that the best response is often to simply ignore the silly woman until she has changed moods is a great boon to a husband.

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  37. "I don't think drinking, fighting and screwing are great signs of manhood. Some of these footballers are dickheads."

    I agree, but its also the case that today guys go out drinking like rowdy teenagers rather than real men. There's still value in being able to defend yourselves and the prospect of being socked always puts men on their best behaviour. These are all fairly low forms of masculinity but it is still masculinity. I'm sure those tough priests liked a drink once in a while.

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  38. Females have slowly crept into the sanctuary.

    The same at our church. I don't approve, but it is still the most conservative church around.

    She is quite cute.

    I agree. Her hair color is a bit drab, but she's definitely feminine and attractive in appearance; very symmetrical and with soft features. She's also not wearing much makeup. I think we're all used to seeing women very heavily made up in pictures. She looks like a kindergarten teacher, or something. Her predecessor, as well.

    Feminists are also sometimes attractive, but they tend toward harder features and a less pleasant countenance (higher testosterone levels, I suspect). Maybe I'm just taking the comment too personally, as my own looks tend that way (softer), but I've grown tired of the chiseled and masculine-looking women being held up as some sort of beauty ideal.

    It is the only major societal force (with the possible exception of evolutionary psychology as a science) which still holds that men and women are not fundamentally the same.

    What about the Pentecostals? They seem to be our ideological brothers, at least in respect to gender roles and procreation. I've always felt close to them because of my conversion, and their respect for religious mysteries.

    this is an advertising campaign that shows attractive women putting up their little pinkies and implying that men who speed on the road have small wangs

    That is awful!

    Aggressive drivers are actually likely to be more masculine than average, and women are likely to find them attractive.

    My husband drives like a mad man sometimes. It's quite frightening and we regularly get in arguments about it. He doesn't let me drive if he's in the car unless he's had something to drink, and then he complains the whole time about my slow and timid driving.

    He's very contrarian; if I complain that he's driving too fast then he speeds up, if I complain that he's overtaking recklessly then he starts weaving in-and-out of traffic, if I complain that he's driving down the Autobahn at 230 kmh with only one hand on the steering wheel he lets go with the other one too. No matter what I say, he answers with, "Silence! Do not nag me." and does as he likes. I've given up and now I just cower in my seat and pray to make it home alive and not kill anyone on the way.

    I think it's a testosterone-thing. It isn't called aggressive driving for nothing. Every guy I've dated long-term has been like that. One of them drove a BMW (way too fast, of course) and he always called it his "black man's wiener". That's an English joke, I've been led to believe. I used to dread getting into the car with him. It was a M and he pushed it the max on the highway.

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  39. All of those priests were distinguished by robust common sense, toughness of spirit

    Yes, I remember that kind of priest too. That's a good description of them.

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  40. Drab and mousy? That woman is not drab and mousy. She is quite cute.

    That you leap to her defense is merely proof that most conservative men are pathetic cringing betas no matter how much chest-thumping they do about "traditional values".

    Repeat: Drab. Mousy. A man with options wouldn't look twice at that.

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  41. Drab. Mousy.

    Anon, in the photo I posted she's making an effort to look feminine and friendly. And she seems to have kept in shape. It's paid off for her as she recently married the Secretary of State in Germany.

    She looks like a kindergarten teacher

    Doesn't she.

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  42. The Spearhead has picked up on the article, as well. The bottom of the comment thread is filled with the usual feminist drivel about how German women should just curl up and die. So, nothing new or particularly enlightening there. But at least they posted it, as they have a large readership.

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