tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post7971374941907301076..comments2024-03-25T19:48:24.624+11:00Comments on Oz Conservative: A step forward? Moving politics beyond CameronUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger61125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-12476711831931796582011-02-21T13:55:42.087+11:002011-02-21T13:55:42.087+11:00"To change a political order requires revolut..."To change a political order requires revolution."<br /><br />Don't underestimate boredom and apathy. As I pointed out the liberal left took over the cultural sphere of western society due to the complacency of conservatives who assumed the left could never take over. The 60s counter culture revolution was a reaction to the cosy economic stability of the 1950s (the kids were bored). The Soviet Empire fell because the elites no longer had the will to up hold it.<br /><br />The masses may also be somewhat liberal as well but the fact that independent populist politicians are demonised and excluded by the elites indicates that there is still a big ideological gulf between them and the elites.Mike Courtmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15226171376902020196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-50563243802172994292011-02-20T02:13:30.640+11:002011-02-20T02:13:30.640+11:00"But if even 15% of the political class were ..."But if even 15% of the political class were to adopt non-liberal views it would become difficult to keep the system closed."<br /><br />No it is not - they just get rid of the politcal actors with non traditional views. <br /><br />To change a politcal order requires revolution. The only ccountry in which this has happened is the Lebanon where Hezbollah took over the Government. But they had the backing of the Iranian Government in order to achieve it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-40706224165321154452011-02-20T02:08:19.217+11:002011-02-20T02:08:19.217+11:00"In Australia in the 1980s and early 1990s fe..."In Australia in the 1980s and early 1990s feminism ruled unchallenged. Feminists had the levers of power and could do what they liked with this power"<br /><br />I must say that the pre occupation of this web site with feminism and its "power" displays an utter naivety of the political process. <br /><br />You have not understood that politcal power is dependent upon wealth and influence. Feminists don't have that wealth or influence and never have had it. They may have had an illusion of power but that is quite differnt from having actual power.<br /><br />Feminists are the poster girls for Liberal wealthy men who need to market their policies and put spin on their ideas to make them acceptable to the target market. <br /><br />Feminists are not the driving force behind any political movement. They are simply the poster girls for the campaigns of the real powers behind the scenes.<br /><br />The men's movement is politically irrelevant. The war in politics is between the globalised wealthy elite who are imposing their policies via their direct control of the political system and the powerless masses who will need to find the means to overthrow them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-56383074751724429302011-02-19T17:39:58.535+11:002011-02-19T17:39:58.535+11:00And how will we challenge the worldview of liberal...And how will we challenge the worldview of liberalism? Equality, individualism (autonomy), progress, democracy, human rights and other things?Elizabeth Smithnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-18705555141043475562011-02-19T17:37:42.116+11:002011-02-19T17:37:42.116+11:00"But there is now more of a contest when it c..."But there is now more of a contest when it comes to promulgating ideas and beliefs. Young men in the political class are no longer falling into an allegiance to feminism as being the naturally 'moral' option."<br /><br />There needs to be a challenge to left-liberalism (liberalism) and right-liberalism (libertarianism) I agree.<br /><br />"Liberals have in the past managed to keep to a closed system, which is what PC was all about."<br /><br />PC is the logical consequence of liberalism. It's a consequence of the female way of thought versus the male way of thought. It's also closely related to anti religious (mostly Christian) sentiment and the theory of evolution (we are always progressing, etc).<br /><br />"But if even 15% of the political class were to adopt non-liberal views it would become difficult to keep the system closed."<br /><br />Both the masses and the political class have become infected with liberalism. I disagree that it's just political class (the masses support it as well) but agree that we need to transform both segments. So what system of politics is better than democracy? The monarchy perhaps?Elizabeth Smithnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-40977045348694036422011-02-19T14:08:24.017+11:002011-02-19T14:08:24.017+11:00Hence it needs to have near total elite support to...<i>Hence it needs to have near total elite support to succeed.</i><br /><br />I think that's pretty much right. People in a "closed" system can persuade each other to follow a world view that doesn't correlate well to reality (particularly if there's some self-interest involved). But open up the system and attitudes can change relatively quickly.<br /><br />You can see the same kind of thing at certain websites. To use feminism as an example again, there are feminist websites which don't allow non-feminist comments. It's easy at these sites for the feminist women to hold to the belief that all men are abusers, rapists etc. But if there was a more open discussion, it's likely that the handful of true believers in the men as abusers theory would not as easily hold sway over the others.<br /><br />Liberals have in the past managed to keep to a closed system, which is what PC was all about.<br /><br />But if even 15% of the political class were to adopt non-liberal views it would become difficult to keep the system closed.Mark Richardsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15961688379656119701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-54566299977093570952011-02-19T10:44:52.115+11:002011-02-19T10:44:52.115+11:00"You're not in the game if you aren't..."You're not in the game if you aren't represented in the political class. And traditionalists haven't been."<br /><br />True, which is why whenever a traditionalist or even part traditionalist breaks into the mainstream they get savaged by the elites.<br /><br />Take the kiwi politician Winston Peters, for example. He expresses very midlly traditionalist views on issues like immigration and has the advantage of being mixed race, but is still ridiculed and demonised by both the left and right. If fact the right hate him more than the left because he is mildly protectionist. However, he has still had a significant impact on NZ immigration policy, and has single-handedly moved it slightly to the right of Australia's.<br /><br />The elites know that liberalism in its full-blown form is very unpopular with the masses, and know that even with a relatively small minority of elite representation, traditionalists could box well above their weight.<br /><br />By contrasts, liberalism is a relatively unpopular ideology that is imposed from above. Hence it needs to have near total elite support to succeed. Which is why liberal elites are so intolerant about traditionalists having a seat at the table, and are so aggressive in imposing things like politically correct speech codes.<br /><br />I also suspect that when traditionalists were dominant the reason why they weren't that bothered about left liberals getting a foot in the door was because they assumed the left liberals would never be able to take over since their views were unpopular with the masses, and they could never achieve hegemony in a democracy.<br /><br />Basically, then the right underestimated the left liberals ability to control society by imposing orthodoxy among the elites.<br /><br />Hence it's going to be very tough to break into mainstream politics, but once traditionalists get into the mainstream, they will have a lot of political clout if they have politicians that know how to play to the crowd.Mike Courtmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15226171376902020196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-11456451300130351152011-02-19T09:53:38.944+11:002011-02-19T09:53:38.944+11:00But anon think of the example of feminism.
In Aus...But anon think of the example of feminism.<br /><br />In Australia in the 1980s and early 1990s feminism ruled unchallenged. Feminists had the levers of power and could do what they liked with this power.<br /><br />But this intensified the faults within feminist ideology. The influence of feminism on society became unbearable even for a section of those on the left.<br /><br />So there was a backlash from which Australian feminism has not still quite recovered.<br /><br />In the meantime, a men's movement has sprung up which was mocked at first but which is now unlikely to go away. The movement is not politically unified but has some genuinely non-liberal elements within it. <br /><br />We haven't got to the point at which feminists are out of power - they are still there in government passing feminist legislation.<br /><br />But there is now more of a contest when it comes to promulgating ideas and beliefs. Young men in the political class are no longer falling into an allegiance to feminism as being the naturally 'moral' option.Mark Richardsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15961688379656119701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-53988562863959737582011-02-19T04:31:32.529+11:002011-02-19T04:31:32.529+11:00"What I've said all along is that you get..."What I've said all along is that you get the chance to change things when you start to win over a section of the political class - the political class being those people in society with an abiding interest and involvement in politics.<br /><br />In Australia the ordinary voters were a lot more conservative than the politicians for decades. But because the political class was solidly liberal it never amounted to much.<br /><br />You're not in the game if you aren't represented in the political class. And traditionalists haven't been."<br /><br />The ordinary voter is largely irrelevant in most democracies which are essentially controlled by powerful vested interests. In most Western countries (USA, UK) these are corporations and in the Asian countries these are powerful families (India). The ordinary voter has no effective means of control of the political system and public opinion is largely manipulated and often disregarded.<br /><br />To obtain influence in politics it is essential to acquire the power and wealth to gain leverage over the political system and this means the control of key positions and key sectors of the economy. Conservatives in most countries do not have the resources to do this.<br /><br />Once a political organisation or movement which is opposed to or at odds with the prevailing political order becomes significant it is inflitrated by the intelligence services and is subverted from within and attacked from without.<br /><br />The idea that a traditionalist politcal movement can succeed is not realistic without having a strategy to overwhelm the resources of security and intelligence apparatus of a country.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-84980510012801526572011-02-19T02:18:51.399+11:002011-02-19T02:18:51.399+11:00Wherever positions of authority and influence are ...Wherever positions of authority and influence are occupied by "liberals" - which is more or less everywhere in Western societies - they will have to be displaced and much of their political legacy will have to be dumped before "traditionalists" can get their hands on the levers of power and effect the changes they want.<br /><br />This task is incredibly difficult to accomplish peacefully in a democracy.Alexnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-36468356606490540482011-02-18T23:00:09.640+11:002011-02-18T23:00:09.640+11:00Mark Richardson said,
"The encouraging sign ...Mark Richardson said,<br /><br />"The encouraging sign is that some of the rank and file right liberals within the political class are starting to open up a bit to certain traditionalist positions."<br /><br />I can attest to the wets being on the back foot generally within the Liberal party. Their agenda is weak and they know it. If you can change the "Liberal" party to the "Conservative" party you are advancing the cause.Jesse_7https://www.blogger.com/profile/08732509086253241748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-50351064602873293252011-02-18T22:40:12.948+11:002011-02-18T22:40:12.948+11:00People power is not an effective force without the...<i>People power is not an effective force without the backing of the elites.</i><br /><br />Maybe I didn't express myself well.<br /><br />What I've said all along is that you get the chance to change things when you start to win over a section of the political class - the political class being those people in society with an abiding interest and involvement in politics.<br /><br />In Australia the ordinary voters were a lot more conservative than the politicians for decades. But because the political class was solidly liberal it never amounted to much.<br /><br />You're not in the game if you aren't represented in the political class. And traditionalists haven't been.<br /><br />The encouraging sign is that some of the rank and file right liberals within the political class are starting to open up a bit to certain traditionalist positions. Also, there are other non-orthodox political currents that have sprung up, including those within the men's rights movement.<br /><br />It's not happening in a neat and orderly way, but there are signs of some people moving beyond liberal orthodoxy.<br /><br />But it's not enough right now to affect official party politics, which continues on as before.Mark Richardsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15961688379656119701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-15269239793547094352011-02-18T22:01:16.203+11:002011-02-18T22:01:16.203+11:00Anonymous said,
"In order to achieve signifi...Anonymous said,<br /><br />"In order to achieve significant results it is essential to have the logistical support from an intelligence service, either one's own or a foreign one which has a strong interest in changing the prevailing order."<br /><br />You've read too many spy novels.Jesse_7https://www.blogger.com/profile/08732509086253241748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-22218505106087147422011-02-18T21:18:44.284+11:002011-02-18T21:18:44.284+11:00"But we have to take this step by step. At th..."But we have to take this step by step. At the moment, we're still at the stage of breaking apart the liberal monopoly on politics - of trying to demonstrate the possibility of a principled, non-liberal politics.<br /><br />There really are some encouraging signs right now that politics (amongst the rank and file) is beginning to open up."<br /><br />This is naive. People power is not an efective force without the backing of the elites. In order to achieve significant results it is essential to have the logistical support from an intelligence service, either one's own or a foreign one which has a strong interest in changing the prevailing order. <br /><br />Cameron is not changing his political philosophy, he is simply changing the spin.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-85107011805414271012011-02-18T19:10:28.332+11:002011-02-18T19:10:28.332+11:00James suggests some gettable goals at which tradit...James suggests some gettable goals at which traditionalists should aim in order to get the upper hand (eventually).<br /><br />Well, I agree with every sentiment wrapped up in these goals, but none of them is going to be aimed for by the powers-that-be. Only the liberal establishment has the political power to achieve these goals, and it isn't going to dissolve itself and give anyone else the chance to turn its world upside down. <br /><br />Whether the incremental steps, suggested by Mark, will work depends on many factors - not least of which is persevering for as long as the desired transformation will take. And how long will it take: another generation or two? <br /><br />Small numbers of people who are fed up with political correctness and the loss of their freedoms, aren't going to destroy the apparatus that controls everything from the centre by wanting to. Merely wanting to do what's right isn't enough. <br /><br />It's no use hoping for a revolt of the people. There are no signs among the brainwashed masses that they are willing to give up the goodies which the liberal militants have bribed them with.Alexnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-43543118382072639002011-02-18T14:53:23.523+11:002011-02-18T14:53:23.523+11:00""I also don't think that anyone on ...""I also don't think that anyone on the "alternative right" should be praising Anglo capitalism, which is responsible for much of the mess we find ourselves in.""<br /><br />You have a point, but that same capitalism is the reason why my Grandfather couldn't afford shoes and I have a dozen pairs despite not being very wealthy.<br /><br />It is the cultural ideology of liberalism rather than the economic system of capitalism itself that creates the atomisation issues and social disintergration that traditionalists generally detest.Westieboynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-42467108331027655782011-02-18T14:39:26.346+11:002011-02-18T14:39:26.346+11:00""But can anyone suggest a peaceful seri...""But can anyone suggest a peaceful series of political expedients that would give "traditionalists" the upper hand?""<br /><br />So you want "gettable" goals?<br /><br />1. Reduce immigration by as much as possible [this being favoured by a large chunk of the popuation already]. Any downward pressure on it or shift in community attitudes against it is good.<br /><br />2. Shrink government spending, something a large chunk of the Right-libs want to do for themselves anyway for their own reasons. When you shrink government spending you weaken the State and strengthen the family.<br /><br />Do these things and further progress can be made from there. <br /><br />Don't do these things and it may well be time to start building gated communities.Jamesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-28155546585280704262011-02-18T09:14:28.635+11:002011-02-18T09:14:28.635+11:00Ireland was essentially a Third World country unti...<i>Ireland was essentially a Third World country until railroaded into the EU and financed by Germany.</i><br /><br />A little off topic, but please do not confuse an agrarian society with a third world one.<br /><br />I also don't think that anyone on the "alternative right" should be praising Anglo capitalism, which is responsible for much of the mess we find ourselves in.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-62427278826580636282011-02-18T07:47:01.848+11:002011-02-18T07:47:01.848+11:00"Let's say that we were to gain numbers, ..."Let's say that we were to gain numbers, but not adequate to gain a democratic majority. Does that mean it's all over?"<br /><br />No. We have to make small gains. Plus I doubt that democracy is a good form of government (perhaps the monarchy or something else).Elizabeth Smithnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-81909937784864222072011-02-18T07:23:02.257+11:002011-02-18T07:23:02.257+11:00I agree with Jesse that we're jumping ahead of...I agree with Jesse that we're jumping ahead of ourselves in some of this discussion.<br /><br />We're just beginning to witness a breaking with liberal orthodoxy, particularly from those coming from a right-liberal background.<br /><br />It's still difficult to know how far this might go. And that will determine what might be realistically achieved.<br /><br />But there are certainly things that might be achieved, even in the conditions that have been left to us.<br /><br />Let's say that we were to gain numbers, but not adequate to gain a democratic majority. Does that mean it's all over?<br /><br />Not really. We could try to dominate somewhere in Australia. It's a big country. If numbers were big enough, we could set up some schools, some local media etc. It's likely that you'd get at least some people from elsewhere in Australia wanting to join in.<br /><br />And what if we had enough support to at least get some senators into Parliament? That would then give us at least some political leverage.<br /><br />We could intervene in whatever political issues of the day were happening and either establish a traditionalist party or else have a greater influence within an established party.<br /><br />But we have to take this step by step. At the moment, we're still at the stage of breaking apart the liberal monopoly on politics - of trying to demonstrate the possibility of a principled, non-liberal politics.<br /><br />There really are some encouraging signs right now that politics (amongst the rank and file) is beginning to open up.Mark Richardsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15961688379656119701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-75551840361926135652011-02-18T06:36:09.531+11:002011-02-18T06:36:09.531+11:00It's moving slowly and step by step beyond Cam...It's moving slowly and step by step beyond Cameron. With more and more conservatives rejecting libertarianism little by little things are getting clearer.Elizabeth Smithnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-21805631154726891782011-02-18T05:20:40.933+11:002011-02-18T05:20:40.933+11:00There are references to "traditionalists"...There are references to "traditionalists" in this discussion which I understand, generally speaking, is a shorthand description of opponents of every ubiquitous aspect of political correctness that has been imposed.<br /><br />But can anyone suggest a peaceful series of political expedients that would give "traditionalists" the upper hand?Alexnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-89710139915518144712011-02-18T03:40:38.117+11:002011-02-18T03:40:38.117+11:00Southern Corss' response seems to be tinged wi...<i>Southern Corss' response seems to be tinged with rose coloured glasses. In the 1970s Ireland was dirt poor. It was largely due to its entrance into the EU that it was able to obtain EU grants to allow it to develop some infratructure, keep its corporation tax low and attract foreign companies. But foreign companies do not make an economy and many of these are now leaving.</i><br /><br />And yours is tinged with black-coloured glasses, or blinders. EU grants were marginal and patently useless as in anything the EU endeavours to do. Fianna Fail cut spending on a dramatic scale, which allowed Ireland to cut taxes. Many companies will stay, they have already said so and urged government not to raise the corporate income tax rate, government gave in, and many are staying. Why should they go to Germany to have up to a third of their profits confiscated by the state with no significant gap in productivity to make it up?<br /><br /><i>The Irish don't have a bright future. They are effectivley slaves to the Germans and the people will face severe cutbacks for years until their debts to the Germans are repaid.</i><br /><br />Maybe, who knows? EMU has been a dismal failure, this is the only thing Ireland (and Greece) has proven so far. All eurozone countries are slaves to Germany, including the French.<br /><br /><i>The Labour party in Britain draws its support from the Irish immigrant population in the UK who are largely socialist in their political orientaion with large numbers dependent upon welfare.<br />The IRA is also a Marxist organisation.</i><br /><br />Any source? So far, these are gratuitous assumptions. As far as I am aware, Labour strongholds are located, for the most part, in Wales, Scotland, and Northern England (where there might large numbers of people of Irish descent). You may not like it, but Ireland as a whole holds far more socially conservative views on abortion, marriage and a myriad of other issues than Britain. On the other hand, we do agree as far as the IRA is concerned.Southern Crossnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-39729192647496199812011-02-18T03:24:01.590+11:002011-02-18T03:24:01.590+11:00Ireland
Southern Corss' response seems to be ...Ireland<br /><br />Southern Corss' response seems to be tinged with rose coloured glasses. In the 1970s Ireland was dirt poor. It was largely due to its entrance into the EU that it was able to obtain EU grants to allow it to develop some infratructure, keep its corporation tax low and attract foreign companies. But foreign companies do not make an economy and many of these are now leaving.<br /><br />The Irish don't have a bright future. They are effectivley slaves to the Germans and the people will face severe cutbacks for years until their debts to the Germans are repaid.<br /><br />"This is admittedly not saying much, but they do compare favourably with other European countries, including Britain where Labour has long been ... "<br /><br />The Labour party in Britain draws its support from the Irish immigrant population in the UK who are largely socialist in their political orientaion with large numbers dependent upon welfare.<br />The IRA is also a Marxist organisation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-87324664730820374392011-02-18T03:01:11.376+11:002011-02-18T03:01:11.376+11:00James said,
"Bob, I am sure you know about t...James said,<br /><br />"Bob, I am sure you know about the fabians, their tactics seem to have worked well, i suggest anyone who wants to change society should emulate them.<br /><br />Think baby steps."<br /><br />Its pointless advocating harsher policies when we can't even manage a restriction in immigration yet.Jesse_7https://www.blogger.com/profile/08732509086253241748noreply@blogger.com