tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post5431724722129658754..comments2024-03-02T12:39:23.745+11:00Comments on Oz Conservative: Penelope Trunk: women should be paid more than menUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-47032144080585148902010-10-24T22:04:06.990+11:002010-10-24T22:04:06.990+11:00I'd be willing to bet that the 21% extra that ...I'd be willing to bet that the 21% extra that women earn in Atlanta is how much extra they have to pay them to actually work there. That place is no bastion of women's rights I can tell you. It's one of the only places I've ever felt nervous walking around in daylight.<br /><br />God forbid you should have to take the MARTA.<br /><br />What a strange example though. I suppose CNN and Ted Turner could be skewing the numbers. The only other things in Atlanta are Delta Airlines and AFLAC.Alabama Traditionalistnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-24835765753815471112010-10-22T10:22:13.671+11:002010-10-22T10:22:13.671+11:00AP,
I hadn't heard that before, but it is spot...AP,<br />I hadn't heard that before, but it is spot-on.Altenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-76996291491650773102010-10-22T05:25:43.142+11:002010-10-22T05:25:43.142+11:00This is a very good thread, and worth forwarding t...This is a very good thread, and worth forwarding to people who are not up to speed on many of the issues contained herein. <br /><br />Alte, you may not have heard this description of Washington, DC:<br /><br />"DC combines both the Northern and Southern US cultures. The politness and manners of the North with the efficiency of the South". I've only ridden the DC Metro a few times, but between the do-nothing employees and some of the ridership, it confirmed the above aphorism.<br /><br />Looking for something else in a search I came across one Balthasar Gracian, a Spaniard of the 17th century who was a Jesuit (i.e. a Protestant who obeys the Pope) and a writer of some interesting things. It is hard to casually describe a Baroque period thinker because that past is a different country. Here are some quotes that are apropos to this thread:<br /><br />"A beautiful woman should break her mirror early".<br /><br />"A bad manner spoils everything, even reason and justice; a good one supplies everything, gilds a No, sweetens a truth and adds a touch of beauty to old age itself".<br /><br />"Aspire to be a hero rather than merely appear one".<br /><br />"A man of honor should never forget what he is because he sees what others are".<br /><br />http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/b/baltasar_gracian.htmlAnonymous Protestantnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-87233666670994659122010-10-21T13:14:48.032+11:002010-10-21T13:14:48.032+11:00grerp wrote:
"Back in the day, average looki...grerp wrote:<br /><br />"Back in the day, average looking, non-hot women could get a certain level of validation from men by being kind, respectable, and hospitable."<br /><br />Such habitual behavior that recognizes its own merit, and the deeper impetus behind it, is a primary key to a truly civilized order. It holds true for both men and women. I don't see any institution-- and it will take an institution to make the push-- up to the task except for a reformed Christianity.<br /><br />"It" is still with us as others have noted. I tend to think the accretion of immoral Hollywood-like living is rather flimsy and vulnerable to attack. It has yet to be attacked from the inside because it still nurtures hedonistic habits without immediate adverse consequences. This phase will not last forever.leadpbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08957439101293478340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-29418932778424624042010-10-21T09:32:37.896+11:002010-10-21T09:32:37.896+11:00Say you're on the street or riding the metro o...Say you're on the street or riding the metro or perhaps out at a club, these venues are so crowded that in order to be noticed it helps to be quite visibly attractive or fashionable. However, that is only one part of life. We work/study with people, socialise, or live near them. In this environment personality traits quickly come to the fore. You also can't really afford to be rude and maintain relationships. Life isn't television where you can just watch it, you have to live in it on a sustained basis and that means the cultivation of personality. So if someone has a painful personality I won't date them no matter how attractive they are.Jesse_7https://www.blogger.com/profile/08732509086253241748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-56955915555525775772010-10-21T02:11:09.647+11:002010-10-21T02:11:09.647+11:00They really do interfere with the everyday care an...<em>They really do interfere with the everyday care and feeding of your own narcissism.</em><br /><br />Good one. Made me laugh.<br /><br /><em>Back in the day, average looking, non-hot women could get a certain level of validation from men by being kind, respectable, and hospitable.</em><br /><br />This. Out in the country, around here, it's still like that. But I do notice that women are invisible in DC, unless someone is oggling them like a piece of meat or trying to get their "digits". Even the "hotter" women are starting to be generally ignored, which might be why they act so desperate for attention.<br /><br />I think the feminists/narcissists (same difference, really) threw the baby out with the bathwater. That sort of politeness was based upon chivalry. But chivalry was based upon women not acting like a bunch of jerks. Using your sexual powers to advance your career qualifies as "acting like a jerk", I think.<br /><br />Although I think the men (and many women) are also just rude. There is a distinct lack of manners that is positively palpable. That's one of the reasons I stopped riding the Metro. The behavior was often atrocious.Altenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-47308717199260705642010-10-21T00:14:16.677+11:002010-10-21T00:14:16.677+11:00For careerist women like Penelope Trunk, it is bet...For careerist women like Penelope Trunk, it is better not to have children. They really do interfere with the everyday care and feeding of your own narcissism. <br /><br />From what I've read about her, she seems like she is pretty high maintenance and probably hard to be in a relationship with. She and Lori Gottlieb probably have a lot in common. I bet Trunk's ex very much wishes he'd reproduced with someone else. She's not exactly grade A mother material. I'm not sure she's top level executive material either. She's been fired a lot and has repeatedly changed personas. Her self-reported success and her tax returns might tell different stories. <br /><br />As for women needing male validation, it's pretty obvious that it's true. However, the catch 22 is that the low road way they are going about getting it virtually assures that they will have it only in the short term whilst they are still "hot." But here's the thing - the female need for validation does not magically disappear when their hotness ebbs, only their ability to achieve it will. Back in the day, average looking, non-hot women could get a certain level of validation from men by being kind, respectable, and hospitable. Men opened doors and complimented them on their appearance, their cooking, their manners or their children. There was a rapport based on mutual respect. The lascivious, predatory Karen Owens of the world get plenty no-respect short-term attention for a decade or so and then nothing but contempt (or, at best, validation from men they themselves were contemptuous of; hardly satisfying) for the remainder of their lives. <br /><br />I think it's possible for career women to achieve rapport with men based on mutual respect, but they will not get it spending their twenties basking in their own power and reveling in the advantage they have over their male peers.grerphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11508847516381764005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-87127636634671908652010-10-20T18:50:02.969+11:002010-10-20T18:50:02.969+11:00There's 38 comments so I've probably misse...There's 38 comments so I've probably missed the discussion...but...<br /><br />Wow....She is a crazy woman.<br /><br />I think NovaSeeker (I only read the first two comments) explains it with the Aspergers. <br /><br />As a women, I fear Aging Greatly and I think a lot of this female feminism stuff comes from that fear and it is not helped when men state over and over again that after 30 we're not sexually attractive anymore. <br /><br />BUT let me tell a story....I've had massive crushes on older men (not cuz of distinguishment but cuz they were 'my type' and I have a specific type)...but I will never forget...when you look into the face of an older guy as a 20 something girl...the little voice in my head went "eww...he's old" and that was that.....Some girls don't mind I guess eish! <br /><br />Either way I think Penelope is a nutter and I think EVERYONE both Male and Female have expiration dates. There's nothing attractive about a 40 year old unmarried male to young women with values and morals. <br /><br />Let's face it...if your male or female...if you make to to 35+ without getting married it's probably cuz there is something wrong with you (but depending on the degree you will or will not get married). And I say this as someone who will probably not get married before 35 and yes it's cuz I'm weird :) :) <br /><br />Marry someone with 4+ years of you!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-64188940493013261922010-10-20T10:01:08.303+11:002010-10-20T10:01:08.303+11:00I think this is right. For most of society we'...I think this is right. For most of society we're focused on what we want, or the end state rather than how we get there. Eg You go to the gym and say "I want to get ripped ... It will take how long?". But ultimately when people set high standards the process of getting there can't be ignored, then we're back to the realm of conservative values.<br /><br />On the doing the right thing front I think this penny is starting to drop. People want what they want but they also want to be treated well. Again in order to be treated well you really have to treat others well.Jesse_7https://www.blogger.com/profile/08732509086253241748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-64372862630874303932010-10-20T09:44:08.928+11:002010-10-20T09:44:08.928+11:00This is the thing. Ultimately you have to do these...<i>This is the thing. Ultimately you have to do these things without a payoff, then you get the payoff. Internal motivation and self discipline is so sexy. </i><br /><br />Doesn't cut it for a lot of folks in our fast-paced, fast-gratification-expected culture. It's understandable in many ways because that "doing the right thing" is also not culturally enforced at all.knightblasterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03042581488365314771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-1548643069098899922010-10-20T08:52:40.014+11:002010-10-20T08:52:40.014+11:00This is the thing. Ultimately you have to do these...This is the thing. Ultimately you have to do these things without a payoff, then you get the payoff. Internal motivation and self discipline is so sexy.Jesse_7https://www.blogger.com/profile/08732509086253241748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-27450465933711203882010-10-20T08:41:42.150+11:002010-10-20T08:41:42.150+11:00Is reasonable behavior and a moderate exercise reg...<em>Is reasonable behavior and a moderate exercise regime really so hard to maintain?</em><br /><br />No, but it takes effort. Unless there is some reward offered, they won't usually do it. It's also passive- aggressive behavior toward their husbands.Altenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-22248801538891969772010-10-20T08:29:32.228+11:002010-10-20T08:29:32.228+11:00Proffessor Hale said:
"I also don't have...Proffessor Hale said:<br /><br />"I also don't have a problem with attractive women drinking a lot and sleeping around as long as it helps me get laid. The alcohol helps me deal with how I am being used by those strong empowered women."<br /><br />I'd personally rather have a beta girl than an excessively demanding alpha. <br /><br />On the split between the super attractive and those who don't care I agree that it is a symptom of strong individuality. If you're out to compete rather than act how you're supposed to there will be an element of win or don't bother. It can also perhaps be seen as a form of self-indulgence, this going for men and women, either dominate and get all those rewards or grease your impulses with Warcraft and food. Is reasonable behavior and a moderate exercise regime really so hard to maintain?Jesse_7https://www.blogger.com/profile/08732509086253241748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-88772456417763617612010-10-20T07:56:35.803+11:002010-10-20T07:56:35.803+11:00Also, some women I've spoken to are tired of b...<i> Also, some women I've spoken to are tired of being oggled</i><br /><br />Tired of being ogled, or tired of being ogled by insufficiently high status men?<br /><br />Think of the Saturday Night Live definition of sexual harassment.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-17334246675936002892010-10-20T07:36:53.697+11:002010-10-20T07:36:53.697+11:00'' What I see with the focus on looks is t...'' What I see with the focus on looks is that there is increasingly an "appearance split". So some of the women are obsessed with their looks, and others don't take care of their appearance at all. The women who are merely pretty, lean, and well-kept are a shrinking group. It's now "you're hot or you're not". By setting the bar so high, an increasing number of women just don't even bother trying to jump anymore.<br /><br />In other words, the looks competition has now become so harsh that many women don't even join in. I suppose it's the mirror image of the men's "going ghost" phenomenon, where large numbers of eligible betas give up and play computer games or watch porn, when faced with the brutalities of the marriage market.''<br /><br />Since the market has become so hypersexualized and the sluts have taken over it (higher and higher partner counts) would some women leave it?Elizabeth Smithhttp://alcestiseshtemoa.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-14845952645335290642010-10-20T05:31:46.981+11:002010-10-20T05:31:46.981+11:00I think the lack of temperance in appearance is so...I think the lack of temperance in appearance is something that leads to women's looks completely "falling apart" after marriage. Men see women dressed-to-impressed and think that will keep up with 4 kids and a mortgage. Probably not. If a woman looks neat, well-groomed, and healthy before marriage she can probably keep it up afterward, with a minimum of effort. But if she looks like a 10, then forgeddaboutit.<br /><br />When I think about my mother's generation, and even more my grandmother's generation, they usually looked neat and feminine, but never "hot". They wore comfortable <a href="http://www.sieh-an.de/images/shop/484/484.DI-001.19.1.FLI-PFL_3.jpg" rel="nofollow">housedresses</a> and pretty flats, braided their hair or wore it in a simple cut, wore little or no makeup, watched what they ate, shaved their legs and groomed their nails once a week, and that was it. So the median was higher quality than today, because the average effort was feasible for most women. <br /><br />That's what I try to maintain, and it's not a big deal. But if I was supposed to look like a model, I'd quickly give up in frustration and reach for some cupcakes.<br /><br />Also, some women I've spoken to are tired of being oggled, and like being unnattractive. There are benefits to being invisible, after all. The idea that there is something in-between seems to completely pass them by.Altenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-15023498033996426382010-10-20T04:44:30.104+11:002010-10-20T04:44:30.104+11:00In other words, the looks competition has now beco...<i>In other words, the looks competition has now become so harsh that many women don't even join in. I suppose it's the mirror image of the men's "going ghost" phenomenon, where large numbers of eligible betas give up and play computer games or watch porn, when faced with the brutalities of the marriage market.</i><br /><br />Yes that makes sense.<br /><br />The effort required can be substantial, for men and women alike. For men, de-betafying yourself in a more total way requires a LOT of effort for quite some time until it becomes a part of your persona, if ever -- many guys will decide it's too much bother, and revert to Warcraft. For women, the issue is whether they really want to spend 60-90 minutes every morning to look hot, and then the additional time in their evenings disproportionately dedicated to grooming, instead of having quiet night in a warm tub with a glass of wine and a novel. <br /><br />The "mainstream" market is brutal, and requires a lot of effort for most people (all but the naturally gifted, of whom there are few among men and women alike) to compete in it to a level that will satisfy them. So it makes perfect sense that a good number of men and women will just opt out of the effort required, preferring to spend their limited time resources in other ways.knightblasterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03042581488365314771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-32975077504372967432010-10-20T02:42:51.297+11:002010-10-20T02:42:51.297+11:00I think women should get paid more than men. I al...I think women should get paid more than men. I also think they should retain a BMI of less than 20 for their whole lives and have a solid C cup and their fashions should be restricted to haltertops.<br /><br />We can all dream.<br /><br />I also don't have a problem with attractive women drinking a lot and sleeping around as long as it helps me get laid. The alcohol helps me deal with how I am being used by those strong empowered women.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-52736771248748550502010-10-20T01:13:19.322+11:002010-10-20T01:13:19.322+11:00There needn't actually be any men present in o...<em>There needn't actually be any men present in order for women to competing for the eyes of the top men, because women (generally) can, by proxy, determine what will be more effective at doing so, even in the absence of men.</em><br /><br />Even the most modest-looking, demure, sweet Christian ladies group will occasionally degrade into a cat-fight. There is constant status jostling going on, even when appearance isn't being taken into account, or of paramount importance. Women just compete with each other naturally. The competition being limited merely to looks is what I am criticizing. After all, the infighting does serve to increase the quality of the average woman, as long as the group polices itself to keep things from degrading into bullying.<br /><br />What I see with the focus on looks is that there is increasingly an "appearance split". So some of the women are obsessed with their looks, and others don't take care of their appearance at all. The women who are merely pretty, lean, and well-kept are a shrinking group. It's now "you're hot or you're not". By setting the bar so high, an increasing number of women just don't even bother trying to jump anymore.<br /><br />In other words, the looks competition has now become so harsh that many women don't even join in. I suppose it's the mirror image of the men's "going ghost" phenomenon, where large numbers of eligible betas give up and play computer games or watch porn, when faced with the brutalities of the marriage market.<br /><br /><em>The ideal women of today is energetic, "healthy" ie sporty, and social but not really knowledgeable or talented/cultivated.</em><br /><br />Yes. A lot of men criticize women's increasing superficiality, but they should recognize that women are being rational and efficient. They have a limited number of hours in the day: Do I go to the gym and then to my Weight Watcher's meeting? Or do I go home and read Tolstoy and work on my culinary skills?<br /><br />There is a reason why most of them hardly read and can't cook. Reading and cooking aren't valued, anymore. The men don't read themselves and you can always order take-out. Also, for a woman to get married she first has to get a date. Working on her appearance will help her do that more than working on her personality. That is a simple fact.<br /><br />Modest women are being shrewd and realizing that just "getting a date" isn't really enough. You have to get a date with a man who is likely to marry you. For that, you have to attract men who are more interested in your personality and less in your cleavage. Cleavage is relatively interchangeable, personalities less so. The more unique you seem to him, the more likely he will be to want to keep you around for a while. <br /><br />So you cover up your cleavage and encourage men to look in your face, instead. You can play FTOW, but you can't play ten-other-faces. Men don't fall in love with bodies, they fall in love with faces and personalities.<br /><br />If you work on your personality rather than flaunting yourself, you are reducing your potential mate market dramatically. You will be invisible to large numbers of men, there is no doubt about it. But you will probably have more success with getting married. Women need to choose quantity or quality.Altenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-86096278589750279342010-10-20T00:35:29.898+11:002010-10-20T00:35:29.898+11:00Although I suppose it sounds awful, the basic idea...<i>Although I suppose it sounds awful, the basic idea behind modesty (when it applies to dating, not in general) is that you are a product and are tailoring your packaging to attract a very specific customer, namely "marrying men".</i><br /><br />Yes, it's a specific presentation aimed at attracting a different kind of fish, I agree. I also agree that it's hard for most young women to do this because it bears a high "validation" price -- that is, women who are dressing less modestly or downright immodestly are garnering a lot more ocular validation, and aren't invisible.knightblasterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03042581488365314771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-61539298935232872202010-10-20T00:31:32.991+11:002010-10-20T00:31:32.991+11:00But isn't it the case that women will do this ...<i>But isn't it the case that women will do this even in the absence of men? Perhaps similar to how men compete in the absence of women. </i><br /><br />Yes, it's a subsidiary competition, I would say -- a surrogate. There needn't actually be any men present in order for women to competing for the eyes of the top men, because women (generally) can, by proxy, determine what will be more effective at doing so, even in the absence of men. So it's a proxy competition in that setting. And, yes, similar to what men do.knightblasterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03042581488365314771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-55773414300117666042010-10-20T00:27:46.859+11:002010-10-20T00:27:46.859+11:00Strong comment Van Wijk.
Alte, but how much of th...Strong comment Van Wijk.<br /><br />Alte, but how much of the situation with women is them "having" to look good. Don't many of them want to? For every girl who is anxious about how she appears there is another who is happy to walk around wearing shorts and a tank top and think its the best thing ever. If women are proud of their bodies or a healthy lifestyle isn't it then fun to show it off a little?<br /><br />On the point about women in the Victorian period cultivating their minds its very true. The ideal women of today is energetic, "healthy" ie sporty, and social but not really knowledgeable or talented/cultivated.Jesse_7https://www.blogger.com/profile/08732509086253241748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-76328175964741805732010-10-20T00:10:53.049+11:002010-10-20T00:10:53.049+11:00but are competing for the eyes of the top men whom...<em>but are competing for the eyes of the top men whom they very much want to attract, regardless of their own status and whether they would actually *do* anything about that attraction</em><br /><br />Well, yes. I suppose that is why modesty is generally associated with marriage. The "top men" aren't usually interested in marriage (or faithful when they do marry), so if a woman covers up she is sending a purposeful signal that she is no longer available to those "top men" for sport.<br /><br />Although I suppose it sounds awful, the basic idea behind modesty (when it applies to dating, not in general) is that you are a product and are tailoring your packaging to attract a very specific customer, namely "marrying men".<br /><br /><em>So in such a case the empowerment of the attractive girl, through display, (although its an endless competition to hit the heights of attractiveness) may cause the dismay of the allright girl.</em><br /><br />That sort of competition is only empowering and entertaining for women with little else to offer. If a woman is attractive and talented, or attractive and intelligent, or attractive and simply pleasant, she's having to shelve her other positive traits and concentrate solely on her looks. That's actually very painful for her, and something she will might eventually become quite bitter about.<br /><br />I was reading a book about Victorian girls and they were noting their healthy body image. Everyone harps on about corsets and things, but in truth most women spent most of their time cultivating their minds, souls, abilities, and personalities. Contrast that with the modern women who spend an hour every morning doing their hair, adjusting their fake breasts, and slathering on a layer of camouflage. They are like a caricature of themselves, and degrade themselves to mere sex objects with such behavior. Many women tire of that routine, but feel pressured and compelled to do so.<br /><br />As a woman, if you are not "selling yourself to the highest bidder", then you will often feel quite invisible. That's a hard pill to swallow when you are young and impressionable.Altenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-13092361112640498872010-10-19T23:32:19.860+11:002010-10-19T23:32:19.860+11:00When I read Gibbon I was suprised by how long it t...<i>When I read Gibbon I was suprised by how long it took for the Empire to break apart given the state is was in. So I don't think we're there yet.</i><br /><br />Rome and the modern West are analogous only up to a point. <br /><br />From the founding of the Republic until very near the end of the Empire, <b>the Romans never stopped believing in themselves.</b> As many nations and peoples as they conquered and absorbed, Roman supremacy was always a given and the people of the provinces were expected to toe the line or suffer greatly. That is how a state survives for a thousand years. <br /><br />The modern West, on the other hand, asks nothing of alien citizens and immigrants save that they nourish and take pride in their own enriching cultures. We long for the end of Caucasian dominance, and think ourselves too guilty and evil to go on as we always have. We beg to be conquered. Did a Roman ever think such thoughts?<br /><br />The disease we suffer from is not yet a century old. Rome lasted longer and failed more slowly than we can hope to.Van Wijknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-83928308404575027662010-10-19T23:12:00.424+11:002010-10-19T23:12:00.424+11:00Novaseeker said:
"It does strike me, however...Novaseeker said:<br /><br />"It does strike me, however, that women who are dressing "competitively" are generally not competing for the eyes of most men ... but are competing for the eyes of the top men,"<br /><br />But isn't it the case that women will do this even in the absence of men? Perhaps similar to how men compete in the absence of women.Jesse_7https://www.blogger.com/profile/08732509086253241748noreply@blogger.com