tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post4705553148149465727..comments2024-03-25T19:48:24.624+11:00Comments on Oz Conservative: We're sceptical too ElizabethUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-26337232900459247252010-03-12T01:35:41.570+11:002010-03-12T01:35:41.570+11:00MAggie
To me, hinging your entire self-worth from ...MAggie<br /><i>To me, hinging your entire self-worth from childhood onwards on the dream of marrying and having a number of children is a mistake.</i><br />I would disagree that it has anything to do with the popular notion of "self worth." Marriage and children are a biological drive for most women.<br /><br />Really, all humans have a strong desire to bond and form groups, based on both survival and personal fulfillment. Outcasts generaly died. Even the "rugged individuals" of the Wild West settled inot groups and towns and banded togehter for protections and socializing. Liberal autonomy philosophy stands in opposition to natural forces that drive humans to bond and be accepted by thte group.<br /><br />I am also confused about what I perceive as a contradiction between your notions of going with the flow and radical individualism. These seem like eopposite concepts to me. I guess I am still misunderstnading your use of going with the flow. I thought you meant just accepting the zeitgeist? Or are you saying just try to be happy with whatever comes your way?Lieselnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-79940114109337232432010-03-11T10:58:18.500+11:002010-03-11T10:58:18.500+11:00Additionally,
The point was raised that Conservat...Additionally,<br /><br />The point was raised that Conservatives shame and bully women. I don't think that setting or suggesting "guidelines" necessary qualifies as that. Either way if a man acts like a goon he will get a bollocking on sites like this as well as in society at large. If a woman does every choice or action she makes will likely be defended, applauded, or excused in non conservative circles, and I believe that that is the reason women get a strong focus here. <br /><br />You've done well in your business and I think that that's great. You've contributed to society. Children on the other hand matter too and not just in a personal sense.Jesse_7https://www.blogger.com/profile/08732509086253241748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-65853292612791238022010-03-11T10:20:08.402+11:002010-03-11T10:20:08.402+11:00What about tomorrow, are you perfectly happy to se...What about tomorrow, are you perfectly happy to see it tomorrow? <br /><br />"I don't see immigration as a hail mary, but I guess we will have to wait and see."<br /><br />Well I guess according to your theory we will have to wait and see, because we have no choice in the matter, its just kinda happening. <br /><br />"The issue is whether these immigrants can cope with our laws and values."<br /><br />Why should they bother to "cope" with anything. They'll be the majority soon, and then you'll be the one "coping".<br /><br />"And it seems weird to organize our entire lives around the possibility that we might be among those women dealing with age-related infertility in our late 30s. Most women are, in fact, still fertile even at 39. I am about to turn 39 and the fertility doctor we are consulting due to my husband's infertility laughed when I mentioned a concern about my age!"<br /><br />Is this the case? Did I miss something here? I thought it was established that when you hit your 30's your fertility starts to decline? We'd certainly "like" to be fertile in our 30's, 40's and possibly 50's. Whether we are or not is another matter. Mark has allready made the point several times about the advantages of having kids while you're still younger and not putting it off to the end of your list of things to do. <br /><br />"Every woman has to make her own calculation of what she wants out of life, and what risks she is willing to take. The risk of regret is inherent in any choice we make about marriage and childbearing. This goes for men too."<br /><br />We're in choice theory here. The idea that we can do ANYTHING we chose to is a liberal notion. The idea that some things are easier, more achievable or realistic is a conservative one. I'm not saying don't shoot high, but live in the world. Some things are more achievable than others and there are other factors which affect choice. Its not good enough to say, "Oh you had your choice and you blew it". <br /><br />"Just my personal opinion, but I think that autonomy (and equal citizenship) are crucial for human happiness."<br /><br />On autonomy the issue is, is it an end in itself or is it a means to an end (along with other means). I think you can figure out what that means.Jesse_7https://www.blogger.com/profile/08732509086253241748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-56596695084861570092010-03-11T09:47:15.856+11:002010-03-11T09:47:15.856+11:00Jesse,
I don't see immigration as a hail mary...Jesse,<br /><br />I don't see immigration as a hail mary, but I guess we will have to wait and see. There is no question that raising the numbers in places like Australia and the U.S. would be easy. Everyone in the world wants to come to our countries. The issue is whether these immigrants can cope with our laws and values. I think the vast majority do just fine. I am concerned about radicalized Islamic immigrant communities. <br /><br />As a U.S. citizen, I would be perfectly happy if the majority of our citizenry are not white someday. To me, what matters are the principles on which our country is founded and my experience has been that some of the immigrant groups are the most enthusiastic promoters of those principles (the Cuban community in Florida comes to mind). At the risk of seeming U.S.-centric, I imagine that Australia has national values that immigrant groups can adopt as their own and a cultural pride that would encourage that assimilation. <br /><br />With regard to work, it is weird, but I think that family life and cut-throat competition can coexist. It is amazing to me how acceptable it has become for people (including men) to work from home to care for a sick kid or take a call from the kid's teacher, etc. My field is extremely competitive, but family obligations are also respected. That is the kind of change that encourages someone like me to have a child!Maggienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-45643108818106245352010-03-11T09:25:47.872+11:002010-03-11T09:25:47.872+11:00Mark,
You are right that autonomy is seens as an...Mark, <br /><br />You are right that autonomy is seens as an important good and that is a big motivator. But I don't think telling women that autonomy is bad is going to help much. <br /><br />Just my personal opinion, but I think that autonomy (and equal citizenship) are crucial for human happiness. These are basic human needs that people don't easily give up. People, in my experience, are not generally happy in a position of dependence and subordination. Even the most conservative religious women I have known struggle with the command to submit to their husbands. <br /><br />Admittedly, you (not you personally but social conservatives in general) do have some effective tools in your toolkit to try to get women to give up autonomy. One is religion. One is culture and social shaming of women who are "too" independent. But these tools have been losing their power over the last few decades.<br /><br />I think the solution is to make it easier for women to have that autonomy within a context of motherhood. Stop villifying working mothers. Support more flexibility in the work place. Expect fathers to pull their weight. <br /><br />I think that improving women's status in the professions and providing more cultural support to women's autonomy is helpful to stay-at-home-moms as well. The fact that SAHMs today have a choice to not be SAHMs means that their efforts are less taken for granted by social conservatives. In my mother's era, she did not get any special kudos for being a SAHM, because it was simply taken for granted that that is what women did.Maggienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-68593581942094393272010-03-11T09:08:33.418+11:002010-03-11T09:08:33.418+11:00Mark,
Well, sure, age-related infertility exists ...Mark,<br /><br />Well, sure, age-related infertility exists among a significant minority of women in their late 30s. But it doesn't folllow that women should take some "lesson" from this that we should have babies in our 20s. <br /><br />It seems weird to me to tell women they might regret postponing their childbearing. It is not like women have no idea there is a biological clock. We are bombarded with scare stories about it every two minutes! We make our choices knowingly. <br /> <br />And it seems weird to organize our entire lives around the possibility that we <i>might</i> be among those women dealing with age-related infertility in our late 30s. Most women are, in fact, still fertile even at 39. I am about to turn 39 and the fertility doctor we are consulting due to my husband's infertility <i>laughed</i> when I mentioned a concern about my age!<br /><br />Every woman as to make her own calculation of what she wants out of life, and what risks she is willing to take. The risk of regret is inherent in <i>any</i> choice we make about marriage and childbearine. This goes for men too.Maggienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-13731221429923500522010-03-11T08:47:17.826+11:002010-03-11T08:47:17.826+11:00Maggie,
Just on the point of immigration if I may...Maggie,<br /><br />Just on the point of immigration if I may, I'm presumptively guessing your family might have come from Eastern Europe or the Mediterranean? Which is obviously well and truly within the Western tradition. <br /><br />The immigration option seems like a hail mary pass. We can't seem to get fertility right so I sure hope the immigrants can do it for us. <br /><br />I entirely agree that raising children, whether in a working environment or a stay at home environment should be elevated within our society. A bit more than “should” actually.<br /><br />One thing about work. If work is a bit of a cut throat environment where every advantage that can be seized upon is, then clearly taking time out to have children may be looked down upon. However, work as the only mechanism for advancement in society is clearly a liberal individualist concept. You might say "No that's actually a male environment issue". There is some truth to that. However, the number of women in the workplace is clearly growing so its not entirely a male thing.Jesse_7https://www.blogger.com/profile/08732509086253241748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-84719101697863214992010-03-11T07:56:26.725+11:002010-03-11T07:56:26.725+11:00Maggie,
I don't think berating women for bein...Maggie,<br /><br />I don't think berating women for being selfish is going to do much good either. For the simple reason that that's not the key to the problem.<br /><br />You yourself reveal what the problem is. Women have bought into the liberal idea that the key good in life is individual autonomy. <br /><br />Once you accept autonomy as the overriding aim, then certain things follow.<br /><br />First, a commitment to marriage and motherhood is likely to be deferred in favour of a single lifestyle based on travel, socialising, casual relationships, pursuit of educational gaols and so on.<br /><br />That's because the single lifestyle is the more autonomous one.<br /><br />Or there is a focus on the pursuit of money, status and power through careerism. This is thought to increase the autonomy (the independence) of women vis a vis men.<br /><br />The instincts to marry and have children are still there but they get deferred to some distant, last minute moment in time.<br /><br />You won't raise the status of motherhood in our culture whilst autonomy continues to be seen as the sole, overriding good. <br /><br />After all, in what way is a stay at home mother advancing her autonomy? She is making a definite commitment, tying herself to the service of another person, her child. She is putting the value of motherhood above the value of enhancing her personal autonomy.Mark Richardsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15961688379656119701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-26233666645783846462010-03-11T07:33:44.195+11:002010-03-11T07:33:44.195+11:00Maggie, there's an interesting comment attache...Maggie, there's an interesting comment attached to the Sydney Morning Herald column that the Feministe article discusses.<br /><br />It's from a woman named Victoria:<br /><br />"The indignant young woman in me agrees with every word you say. The 37 year old that's now battling infertility isn't so sure.<br /><br />"Rudd's comments were clearly crass and inappropriate, however, as someone who's watched her friends pursue their career/travel/education dreams then get to their 30s only to find the fertility door resolutely bolted, I do worry the women following in our footsteps haven't learned some valuable lessons.<br /><br />"If you see children as part of your distant future that's all well and good, but you need to be prepared for the fact that biology and time may have other ideas."<br /><br />Victoria has stated succinctly what I have labored to communicate in these posts of mine.Mark Richardsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15961688379656119701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-21163458894755689912010-03-10T23:48:31.936+11:002010-03-10T23:48:31.936+11:00The feminist blog Feministe is taking on the issue...The feminist blog Feministe is taking on the issue of Australian women's supposed obligation to reproduce here:<br /><br />http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2010/03/10/much-as-you-might-expect/Maggienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-71261967701427321612010-03-10T23:44:11.224+11:002010-03-10T23:44:11.224+11:00Hi Jesse,
I think you are right that some people...Hi Jesse, <br /><br />I think you are right that some people don't marry because they can't find a partner on "their" terms and "their" terms may be too hard to meet. (If a woman decides not to marry unless her partner is as good looking as Brad Pitt, there is a good chance she will remain single.) Of course, I don't see a problem with saying, "I will only marry in certain circumstances that may never take place." <br /><br />I also think you are correct that some people would like to have babies but don't because societal conditions are not conducive to reproduction. I would even put myself in that category. <br /><br />I happen to love kids and, in a vacuum, there is no question that I would have tried to have kids 10 -15 years ago. My reluctance has stemmed from our culture's poor treatment of mothers. Working mothers are regularly vilified in the press. Stay-at-home mothers are condescended to. Mothers of all stripes are expected to do the vast bulk of the work of childcare, while it is socially acceptable in some quarters for men to brag that they don't change diapers. And trying to take on all that and remain competitive in the workplace is extremely difficult. <br /><br />So I have waited until I am at a position where I am essentially "the boss" in my company (or, more accurately, in a particular part of my company). Because I set my own hours and don't have to answer to anyone as long as the work gets done, I am now finally able to contemplate motherhood. Sure, I will still be trashed for being a working mother, but I am in a position where I can have a child and still be competitive and powerful in my career. Of course, I am approaching the end of the line for having my own biological kid, but I had to wait until now in order to have a child AND remain an equal citizen and colleague. But I am one of the lucky ones. <br /><br />It seems to me that if getting western women to have more babies is important (which I still doubt), the way to go about it is not to reduce women's independence or ability to make choices. I also highly doubt that exhorting women through religious or cultural pressure to stop being so selfish is gonna work. The way to get women to stop being so reluctant to have kids is to create a society where women are not penalized so harshly for doing so. <br /><br />I also think immigration and assimilation are ways to increase the population that shares western values. Two generations ago, my own family were backwards villagers just off the boat who treated women more crappily than their new country. Within 50 years, their line is now full of thoroughly Anglicized (in the U.S. sense) Enlightenment feminist thinkers such as myself.Maggienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-21905558079840871032010-03-10T09:12:17.333+11:002010-03-10T09:12:17.333+11:00Maggie allright,
"1) they couldn't find ...Maggie allright,<br /><br />"1) they couldn't find a willing partner, or (2) they didn't want to get married"<br /><br />There is a couple more, (3) They couldn't find a partner on THEIR terms (which is a big distinction if the terms are close to unreasonable or impractical) (4) They do want to get married and have babies but are fundamentally confused about how to go about it in todays world (with its strong individual focus) and instead throw their hands up and say its all too hard and then distract themselves as best they can with activities and excitement. <br /><br />When I mean Western, yes I do mean white (sorry), predominantly, but certainly not exclusively. The individualism of the Western world is great but if we don't have babies *poof* its gone. Do you seriously think you can have an ever declining white population, import increasing numbers of immigrants, to the point were they're a colossal majority, and still keep society "Western"?<br /><br />On the overpopulation of the world thing, this is the biggest embarrassing cop out ever. You know what? You're actually doing a social service by not having babies, having all those trips, living from dinner party to dinner party, etc. The western world is only overpopulated if we bring in endless immigrants. Lets set our house in order first before saying the planet is about to die. Otherwise you may be unpleasantly surprised if the planet doesn't die. <br /><br />If it turns out that a woman or man can't have babies, obviously that's a fact of life and obviously that's noones fault (and you can adopt). However, if you leave babies so late in the day that biologically it gets harder, then that certainly isn't random chance but poor planning. <br /><br />"We are talking about women. Women take on the physical burden and risk of having babies."<br /><br />Women and men. Babies is not a women only thing, and these days I think you'd have to back your chances in surviving childbirth. <br /><br />"Besides, the radical individualism in western culture is the very thing I prize about it. So hectoring or forcing women to take on some moral obligation to have lots of babies would be counter to the whole reason I care about my culture."<br /><br />Radical individualism. Why does it have to be radical? Can't you just have individualism? Well individually can't you bring yourself to have a baby? (That is a rhetorical question and not directed at you). We're for the most part talking about 2 children here, that's hardly lots. Nobodies interested in hectoring anyone. The point of this discussion is to show the VALUE of having kids, and this is not merely a personal value. Having kids is a big deal and consequently if its going to take place it must be prioritised within the individual and society. "I'd like to but I guess we'll see", means its not being prioritised and then you're 40. Lets be frank about this, there's "plenty" of stuff you can do in the modern western world untill you're 40, (its not like you're starved of choice and only have babies because everyone else is), and so children have to be a much more deliberate choice and can't be paid off to chance. <br /><br />"I have no interest in becoming an instrument in some sort of breeding war."<br /><br />Oh come on Maggie, we need babies for the Fatherland. Hardly, if we could just manage replacement rate (and incidentally that wouldn't be enough to win in a "breeding war") that would be a huge advance. Like I said you're part of this Western culture you prize so highly, well having babies ensures its survival, beyond you.<br /><br />Incidentally, honestly thanks for the post and your point of view.Jesse_7https://www.blogger.com/profile/08732509086253241748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-31896773156164504362010-03-10T08:00:50.853+11:002010-03-10T08:00:50.853+11:00Liesel,
You may be miscontruing my idea of going ...Liesel,<br /><br />You may be miscontruing my idea of going with the flow. <br /><br />To me, hinging your entire self-worth from childhood onwards on the dream of marrying and having a number of children is a mistake. I have met people who have done this. Then it turns out that no one will marry them! Or it turns out that they can't have children! And then they are devastated. Or they marry someone just for the sake of getting married and find themselves miserably joined to an incompatible partner.<br /><br />It seems far more sensible to just wait and see what happens without pushing too hard for a particular result or pinning all one's hopes or sense of self-worth on a particular result. <br /><br />"Going with the flow" does not mean living a life of meaningless hedonism. I don't believe in God, but I do believe we have an obligation to work hard, to care for our neighbors, and to do whatever we can to make the world better than we found it. Of course, you and I will surely disagree on what "better" looks like, but c'est la vie.Maggienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-38467485523449248092010-03-10T07:48:17.281+11:002010-03-10T07:48:17.281+11:00Jesse 7,
I don't believe in the myth of the p...Jesse 7,<br /><br />I don't believe in the myth of the person who lives la vida loca and then suddenly wakes up to realize he or she forgot to get married and it is too late to fix it. People who find themselves unmarried at, say, 40 are usually unmarried for one of two reasons: (1) they couldn't find a willing partner, or (2) they didn't want to get married. Some of these people, though not all, might regret their decision not to marry -- but regrets are a risk of any decision or course of action we take in life. Plenty of people regret waking up at 40 to find out they ARE married! <br /><br />As for whether people have an obligation to have babies, let's be honest. We are talking about women. Women take on the physical burden and risk of having babies. And no, I don't think we have a moral oblgiation to do so. The earth is more populated than ever, we are not facing extinction, and no, I don't care if western (do you mean white?) people become outnumbered. Although I may have a child (depends on resolving husband's infertility issues), I have no interest in becoming an instrument in some sort of breeding war. <br /><br />Besides, the radical individualism in western culture is the very thing I prize about it. So hectoring or forcing women to take on some moral obligation to have lots of babies would be counter to the whole reason I care about my culture. IMaggienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-26496956177964693312010-03-10T03:36:08.924+11:002010-03-10T03:36:08.924+11:00It seems to me that the philosophy most conducive ...<i><br />It seems to me that the philosophy most conducive to happiness is one of "going with the flow." Wait and see what happens, and resolve to be happy with whatever the outcome is, whether it is marriage or singledom.</i><br /><br />I disagree. the philosophy that leads to the greatest sense of meaning and fulfillment is standing as a bulwark in the face of great streams of opposition. Standing for morals and substance and the truth of God in the face of cruel world is better than just accepting that the silly nonsense that 99% of humans engage in has any worth.<br /><br /><br />just going with the flow leads to meaningless emptiness.Lieselnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-71257234965694774042010-03-09T11:29:15.437+11:002010-03-09T11:29:15.437+11:00"I am impatient with advice from anyone as to..."I am impatient with advice from anyone as to when to get married"<br /><br />I mean don't you think that marriage is good and that people (western people) should have babies? Or should everyone just do whatever they want no matter what the cost?Jesse_7https://www.blogger.com/profile/08732509086253241748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-8082793752539760452010-03-09T11:25:40.810+11:002010-03-09T11:25:40.810+11:00Maggie said:
"It seems to me that the philos...Maggie said:<br /><br />"It seems to me that the philosophy most conducive to happiness is one of "going with the flow." <br /><br />That's fine but you have to put yourself in the right streams. Nobodies saying that you should snap to it and marry anyone by a certain age but if you're living the vida loca that might not prepare you for marraige and then boom you're in your 40's wondering what happened.Jesse_7https://www.blogger.com/profile/08732509086253241748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-75901255319392829622010-03-09T09:26:53.509+11:002010-03-09T09:26:53.509+11:00To the anonymous single woman on this thread who i...To the anonymous single woman on this thread who is upset that men are marrying her mean, liberal, feminist girlfriends:<br /><br />I have to question whether your frustration with your own situation is coloring your assessment of their motivations and situations. (I also question why you are friends with women of whom you have such a poor opinion.)<br /><br />That said, at 27, you are still a young woman! You are hardly an over-the-hill old crone. You have lots of time to get married and have babies, or if you are older when you get married, you still have plenty of time to adopt.<br /><br />Since I don't know you, I don't presume to know why you are havig trouble getting attention from men. But one possibility is that it may be that you are overly passive. I only propose this because you sound like a traditionalist, non-feminist woman, and therefore you may believe that you ought to wait until a man notices you. I would suggest perhaps being a little more outgoing. I don't think that asking a man out for a cup of coffee, or even for dinner, would turn you into a ball-busting feminist, and most men would be wildly flattered (men aren't used to being asked out) and give you a second look even if they haven't noticed you before. (Of course, if you do this, you have to be prepared to be turned down. If you are turned down, don't take it personally. Give yourself a pat on the back for putting yourself out there <i>and</i> for giving the man a compliment and brightening his day.) <br /><br />Again, I don't mean to presume, and perhaps this isn't something you would be comfortable with. I bring this up only as a possibility to consider. It worked for me and gave me the chance to get to know men who wouldn't have given me a second glance otherwise. And it always made me feel good to give them the compliment of asking them out, even if they turned me down.<br /><br />Anyway, from one feminist gal to a non-feminist gal, I really hope you don't despair at this early stage in the game! There's plenty of fish in the sea! Chin up (and stop taking this out on your liberal friends).Maggienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-22413051567390897992010-03-09T09:03:41.863+11:002010-03-09T09:03:41.863+11:00Long-time married feminist here.
I am impatient ...Long-time married feminist here. <br /><br />I am impatient with advice from anyone as to when to get married. It is not something anyone can control because wamarriage depends on the cooperation of a willing and compatible partner. So telling people to get married in their 20s is useless -- unless you want people to get married just for the sake of getting married, which sounds to me like a recipe for disaster, and even then an individual might not be able to find a willing partner. Similarly, telling people to wait until they are older is silly, because you could easily stumble upon that fabulous, compatible person at a fairly young age. (I did, and I wasn't at all looking to marry.) <br /><br />It seems to me that the philosophy most conducive to happiness is one of "going with the flow." Wait and see what happens, and resolve to be happy with whatever the outcome is, whether it is marriage or singledom. <br /><br />One hugely positive outcome of feminism is the improved status of single women. Even as recently as my mother's day, being an "old maid" meant being an object of pity and scorn. This put women in a terrible position, because women had to marry to gain social respect (or at least relatively more respect), yet (as I noted above) the decision to marry wasn't exactly within their control (especially an era that more rigidly enforced the notion that men, not women, initiate courtship).Maggienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-17235650196089319732010-03-09T06:59:17.247+11:002010-03-09T06:59:17.247+11:00Anon Single, perhaps you could look to a matchmake...<b>Anon Single,</b> perhaps you could look to a matchmaker who deals with marriage minded individuals only. They do background checks for you and set you up based on pragmatic rather than romantic consierations.<br /><br /><br />I think Anonymous Single demonstrates the painful problems that result from the breakdown of any rules governing courtship. <br /><br />The liberal worldview embraces breaking down rules and removing any restrictions. This leads one to wonder, "What is the proper way to go about acheiving this goaql?" There is no longer a road map. To the liberal mind this is liberating, to otehrs it is chaotic.<br /><br /><br /><i>I think if you get married at 25-27 to someone you don't 100% love then when you get to be 34-37 lots of things can go wrong. <br /></i><br /><br />I disagree. Love is an active not passive thing. It grows over time, especially after a couple goes through hardships or life changing events together. <br /><br />Couples who have been married since their young 20s were able to grow into adults together. The problem is that marriage in general is not valued or viewed as a long term investment. Not that younger brides (and grooms) do worse at it. The women who marry for trivial reasons intheir twenties would still have married for trivial reasons if they had waited a decade.<br /><br /><br />I also disagree that there is any such thing as shared "eurasian" culture. <br /><br />Or that arranged marriage can be considered Western. The Romans were big on arranged marriages for most. During the medieval period, the ordinary pesants and what not did not arrange marriages for their children, just nobility and the wealthy. The Germanic and Celtic tribes seem to not have arranged marriages much during the Roman years either(from what texts that we have on them.)Lieselnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-11014266157462742892010-03-09T04:16:37.334+11:002010-03-09T04:16:37.334+11:00Dear Anonymous- I read your post and have a sugges...Dear Anonymous- I read your post and have a suggestion. I am a male, and when I was in my late twenties I dated sporadically and never found a woman who wanted to marry me. I am short, but was not ugly or overweight. After a break-up, I was angry with God, and asked him why I could not find a girl who liked me. I was on my knees asking him why he was being so mean to me. Shortly thereafter, I met and married my wife when in my early thirties. We have now been married over 25 years and have 3 beautiful children, all of whom are smart and successful. I remember when we were engaged a woman pulled my wife aside and told her how brave she was to marry a short guy like me. This isn't a Pollyanna tale-being a short man doesn't mean you're inevitably going to be a pariah-Tom Cruise is short, for crying out loud, but never seems to lack for female companionship as far as I can tell( being rich and good-looking like him probably help). I would suggest that you pray to God for help-I am sure God answered my prayer, and my wife and I both believe that God brought us together. When you admit your weakness before God and seek his help for a righteous cause, I am sure he hears such prayers and answers them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-14006312294683071222010-03-08T15:32:41.346+11:002010-03-08T15:32:41.346+11:00""Hey Do You want to have my children? H...""Hey Do You want to have my children? How many do you want?""<br /><br />Surely this should be discussed before marriage though.Jesse_7https://www.blogger.com/profile/08732509086253241748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-709551032248239412010-03-08T14:06:37.126+11:002010-03-08T14:06:37.126+11:00Re Anon's comment that "Hey Do You want t...Re Anon's comment that "<i>Hey Do You want to have my children? How many do you want?</i>"<br /><br />- That is one of the best ways to prevent any girl wanting to go out with you in your early twenties.Kilroynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-30827594994630833612010-03-08T13:54:19.879+11:002010-03-08T13:54:19.879+11:00Ah, just found it:
"Marriage, for example, i...Ah, just found it:<br /><br />"<i>Marriage, for example, is an MUE from the proposal till the divorce. <b>Men begin and end the relationship on their knees</b>. The entire ceremony is utterly feminine and the contract entered into produces an almost two to one failure rate. The home is owned, designed, organized and dominated by the woman. Men, fathers, are always visitors. Sexual harassment laws in schools and tertiary institutions have made it extremely difficult for men – both as students and teachers.</i>"<br /><br />It's from Patrick McCauley, "Killing Fathers" <i>Quadrant Online</i> (17 February 2010).Kilroynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-6489094983657704312010-03-08T13:06:39.713+11:002010-03-08T13:06:39.713+11:00This is an excerpt from Charlotte Allan, "The...This is an excerpt from <a rel="nofollow">Charlotte Allan, "The New Dating Game" <i>The Weekly Standard</i> 15(21) 15 February 2010</a>:<br /><br />"<i>Wives have historically reported less satisfaction from their marriages than husbands, but according to the National Marriage Project’s latest report, their discontent is growing: fewer than 60 percent of wives report that they are 'very happy' in their marriages, in contrast to more than 66 percent in 1973. (Male marital happiness has declined, too: from 70 percent to 63 percent.) 'Women initiate two-thirds of divorces,' W. Bradford Wilcox, an associate professor of sociology at the University of Virginia and director of the National Marriage Project, told me. </i>[citing Wilcox:]<i> 'With no-fault divorce since the 1960s, that can be divorce for no reason at all. The reasons wives divorce their husbands can be legitimate or illegitimate—adultery and abuse or lack of intimacy, growing apart, or having found someone more exciting. And because it’s no-fault divorce even when there might be actual fault, the spouse left behind is often treated unjustly in dividing income and property, and frequently regarding custody of the children.'</i>"<br /><br />I read somewhere that today men "start and end marriage on their knees". Hardly an incentive to tie the knot.Kilroynoreply@blogger.com