tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post4451157337588284748..comments2024-03-25T19:48:24.624+11:00Comments on Oz Conservative: Chilton Williamson on the Tea Party movementUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-68710438497591010232010-10-22T05:44:04.530+11:002010-10-22T05:44:04.530+11:00Jesse_7, the productivity of the West continues de...Jesse_7, the productivity of the West continues despite the Left, not because of it. Consider just one Leftist program, affirmative action. It's been an entire generation since the Bakke decision incorporated active discrimination against white men into the Constitution. It is now standard procedure to promote women over men, regardless of qualifications, in order to meet Federal nose-counting requirements. Since the Clinton administration, medical school admissions have been mandated at 50% women to the best of my knowledge. This means that lesser qualified women are being accepted over higher qualified men into medical programs. Think about that the next time you encounter a woman doctor; if she was in the bottom third of her class, she got there only because of her sex, and kept a more able man from going to that school.<br /><br />Deliberately suppressing the more competent and promoting the less competent in the interests of ideology is not a recipe for making things work well. Every organization of any size in the US is now saddled with a growing number of people who are not competent to do their jobs, and thus a net drain with others having to do their work for them. And they are impossible to fire because of their Federally protected status.<br /><br />In my experience in a variety of fields, the water keeps flowing, the TV stations keep broadcasting, the electricity comes through the wires, the injured are rescued and kept alive, the ships keep on sailing <b>despite</b> the best efforts of leftism/liberalism, not <b>because</b> of these ideologies.<br /><br />As liberal rules become ever more complex, and rigidly applied, the ability of the declining number of competent people to do their jobs is limited. This is a recipe for disaster, not success.Anonymous Protestantnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-56373949369484541992010-10-20T12:54:12.476+11:002010-10-20T12:54:12.476+11:00In this sense I'm using liberal to mean indivi...In this sense I'm using liberal to mean individual commercialists not left/union/liberal. The middle class have always been strongly liberal.Jesse_7https://www.blogger.com/profile/08732509086253241748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-5008776277237715352010-10-20T11:49:35.941+11:002010-10-20T11:49:35.941+11:00On the point about the petty bourgeoios you have t...<i>On the point about the petty bourgeoios you have to remember that they're strongly inculcated with liberal values.</i><br /><br />Hello, this is <b>not an accident</b>. This is how the is Left deliberately destroying the wealth producers, and why the Left is a threat to the continued functioning of Western civilization.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-9547479808912764662010-10-20T10:56:13.412+11:002010-10-20T10:56:13.412+11:00"Everything you see in the MSM is controlled ..."Everything you see in the MSM is controlled by left-liberals and you will only see stereotypes, misinterpretations or caricatures (and the few conservatives that fit these stereotypes)."<br /><br />Elizabeth, you probably have a a good point there, I'll check out some of the sites you refer too. One thing that I've noticed in all English-speaking countries is the near total absense of populists in mainstream discourse. If you talk to say the average guy on a construction site, he'll tend to be moderately socially conservative, hard on law and order and economically middle-of the-road, but among politicians or talking heads you don't come across many people who actually express this combination of views.<br /><br />This is not to say everything 'joe six pack' says is right, and everthing the elites say is wrong, but it is definitely true that the MSM tends to push a very simplified account of society's political divisions.Mike Courtmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15226171376902020196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-15945501408671272212010-10-20T10:55:10.166+11:002010-10-20T10:55:10.166+11:00"Everything you see in the MSM is controlled ..."Everything you see in the MSM is controlled by left-liberals and you will only see stereotypes, misinterpretations or caricatures (and the few conservatives that fit these stereotypes)."<br /><br />Elizabeth, you probably have a a good point there, I'll check out some of the sites you refer too. One thing that I've noticed in all English-speaking countries is the near total absense of populists in mainstream discourse. If you talk to say the average guy on a construction site, he'll tend to be moderately socially conservative, hard on law and order and economically middle-of the-road, but among politicians or talking heads you don't come across many people who actually express this combination of views.<br /><br />This is not to say everything 'joe six pack' says is right, and everthing the elites say is wrong, but it is definitely true that the MSM tends to push a very simplified account of society's political divisions.Mike Courtmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15226171376902020196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-29322540547929558662010-10-20T07:51:44.845+11:002010-10-20T07:51:44.845+11:00More to say: Glenn Beck represents a very bizarre ...More to say: Glenn Beck represents a very bizarre thinker called Skousen, who talks on and on about the divine nature of the American Founding. A Beck acolyte tried to turn me on to the man, but it sounds to me like Americanism warped into idolatry.<br /><br />This sentiment will be easily co-opted by progressivism.<br /><br />The sad thing is that Ayn Rand is even more popular among the middlebrow GOP than Skousen. If you should judge a movement by its books, the Tea Party is not a significant threat to the establishment.<br /><br />The trouble is how much one should judge a movement by its books.<br /><br />As for politicized Christianity, I doubt it is losing numbers because of its bellicosity, but rather because of its weakness. <br /><br />In the 1980s, conservative religiosity served U.S. anti-communist interests. Now that the USSR is gone, the non-Christians in the American ruling class have even less use for the so-called "Religious Right."<br /><br />Those of us who thought we had reliable secular allies are learning this fact the hard way.Kevin J Joneshttp://kevinjjones.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-20689002182252927252010-10-20T02:59:54.999+11:002010-10-20T02:59:54.999+11:00''Glenn Beck, despite being a Mormon, has ...''Glenn Beck, despite being a Mormon, has voiced indifference, even acceptance, for same-sex "marriage," citing Thomas Jefferson of all people.''<br /><br />Here is an article about Glenn Beck --- http://www.russellmoore.com/2010/08/29/god-the-gospel-and-glenn-beck/<br /><br />Glenn Beck is not a social conservative or a Christian. Christians at a whole are leaving politicized Christianity in droves (the few organizations and leaders that created this politicized atmosphere) and going for a de-politicized Christianity.<br /><br />InternetMonk on the evangelical collapse --- http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-original-coming-evangelical-collapse-postsElizabeth Smithhttp://alcestiseshtemoa.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-60125213891044055222010-10-19T22:41:47.365+11:002010-10-19T22:41:47.365+11:00"Lefties are not interested in the things tha..."Lefties are not interested in the things that generate real wealth; these are the province of the despised petty bourgeois."<br /><br />This is true and the Left are largely a leach on the prosperity of others, although pracital benfits can substanitally improve people's quality of life. On the point about the petty bourgeoios you have to remember that they're strongly inculcated with liberal values.Jesse_7https://www.blogger.com/profile/08732509086253241748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-68399858212361830032010-10-19T22:32:47.568+11:002010-10-19T22:32:47.568+11:00I agree that the left are insane in that they don&...<i>I agree that the left are insane in that they don't think through the consequences of their actions. However, modern society is also highly functional.</i><br /><br />Oh, please. Modern society is successful <b>in spite of</b>, not because of, the Left. The Left regarded the economic boom of 1945-1970 as gained through unjust exploitation, and has aggressively moved to tax, legislate, and regulate it out of existence ever since.<br /><br />Lefties are not interested in the things that generate real wealth; these are the province of the despised petty bourgeois.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-79505250458532542192010-10-19T20:32:24.722+11:002010-10-19T20:32:24.722+11:00Fair enough but putting housewives up against them...<i>Fair enough but putting housewives up against them won't cut it.</i><br /><br />This assumes that we're still able to get out of this mess democratically or even peacefully. It's possible that the point of no return has already been crossed.<br /><br /><i>On economic matters whether you credit the left at all for the situation, eg unions improving working conditions/pay or the efficiency dominated middle class liberals, the improvements have been real.</i><br /><br />Overall I'd say crediting the left with the current standard of living is dubious. Today's economy is the Keynsian economy taken to its logical conclusion. An economy without the various tax-funded social programs and government offices would likely see a standard of living much higher than what we have now.<br /><br />I don't think it's ultimately going to matter, though. Westerners in general and Americans in particular have lived fat and safe for too long. We've ducked our heads and shambled back to our comfortable homes after outrages that would have sparked immediate revolution among our forebears. Your high standard of living coupled with lack of principle and an unwillingness to defend one's self will be the end of the United States. Comfort is the enemy of liberty.Van Wijknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-10908510825458156182010-10-19T12:01:40.210+11:002010-10-19T12:01:40.210+11:00Kevin,
Perhaps you're right. Although I'm...Kevin,<br /><br />Perhaps you're right. Although I'm not American my feeling was the Tea party movement grew out of the grass roots opposition to the McCain/Kennedy border legislation.Jesse_7https://www.blogger.com/profile/08732509086253241748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-68858097792042619202010-10-19T10:44:39.708+11:002010-10-19T10:44:39.708+11:00The identity of the Tea Party is contested and har...The identity of the Tea Party is contested and hard to nail down. Lots of mid-level GOP agents are trying to steer it their way, downplaying social conservatism and focusing on fiscal issues.<br /><br />Glenn Beck, despite being a Mormon, has voiced indifference, even acceptance, for same-sex "marriage," citing Thomas Jefferson of all people. <br /><br />I believe the movement originated with Ron Paul supporters, many of whom are not as personally conservative as Paul himself.<br /><br />However, most Tea Party-backed candidates are social conservatives but many tend to be timid about such issues and eager to take advantage of economic discontent.<br /><br />The movement has some promise, but I fear it will just channel opposition in controllable ways and prevent a stronger movement from emerging.Kevin J. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06907423156155669252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-28430999442495049062010-10-18T22:37:32.306+11:002010-10-18T22:37:32.306+11:00I agree that the left are insane in that they don&...I agree that the left are insane in that they don't think through the consequences of their actions. However, modern society is also highly functional. Higher average standards of living etc. It may well be that the average living conditions have dipped since the 1970's but from 1940-70 there was a historically unprecedented (I think) long boom. On economic matters whether you credit the left at all for the situation, eg unions improving working conditions/pay or the efficiency dominated middle class liberals, the improvements have been real. <br /><br />Left wing/liberal society creates lots of pathogens in society but also successes. So whilst the Left may be unwilling to acknowledge the problems they've caused (and over claim the weaknesses of conservative styles), neither should we be willing to totally ignore the successes if we want to have practical impact.<br /><br />With people like Beck and O'Rielly we know that they have an element of "entertainment" focus in their politics. One way to look at it is to ask whether O'Rielly or Beck would ever run for office. Ultimately we know they wouldn't because its not paid as well.Jesse_7https://www.blogger.com/profile/08732509086253241748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-36797769772279008752010-10-18T19:22:51.476+11:002010-10-18T19:22:51.476+11:00Mike Courtman the Tea Party isn't socially con...Mike Courtman the Tea Party isn't socially conservative. Everything you see in the MSM is controlled by left-liberals and you will only see stereotypes, misinterpretations or caricatures (and the few conservatives that fit these stereotypes). It's an illusion created by left-liberals about the hateful, bigoted, racist, sexist, etc conservatives in their minds. Conservatism in their minds means 1st century, 1950's or 18th century (depending on whom you ask). Conservatism to them means past, past, regression, regression, etc. If you want to see average, normal conservatives go to InternetMonk or MereOrthodoxy or websites of the sort. Left-liberals in reality are fighting themselves thinking they are fighting the other which is an illusion. This illusion of Nazis from the 1940's, of Jim Crow laws, of many rabid individuals trying to make America a Christian Theocracy, etc. To them everything is social justice, equality, minority pandering, human rights, 'hate speech', colonialism, affirmative action, etc. They need to feel they are 'triumphing' and continuing a human rights struggle of the 1950's. The illusive right is going to collapse and bring the left down with it. More and more Americans are turning against Democrats and Republicans alike. Maybe that's for the better.<br /><br />The Left is truly insane Anonymous I agree. They have created an illusive right and pander to the few conservatives that fit these stereotypes.Elizabeth Smithhttp://alcestiseshtemoa.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-82348211323902382542010-10-18T16:12:11.590+11:002010-10-18T16:12:11.590+11:00Fair enough but putting housewives up against them...Fair enough but putting housewives up against them won't cut it. I agree most things can be fixed by, or are, common sense, but that doesn't mean that average joe candidates won't be torn down. By rationality we can say what precisely do the Republican/Tea partiers want to do. Cut entitlements? Which entitlements. Anger is good for rabble rousing but fixing problems requires actual ability.Jesse_7https://www.blogger.com/profile/08732509086253241748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-64976575739853148972010-10-18T16:01:42.757+11:002010-10-18T16:01:42.757+11:00Palin and the woman from Delaware, they are both u...<i>Palin and the woman from Delaware, they are both unusually ignorant for politicians about important elements of the political process, eg neither could name any leading recent Supreme court decisions. It can't just be a competition to say who's the most pissed off, there has to be competence there too.</i><br /><br />Meh. At this point give me common sense and good instincts over "knowledge". Our current President and Vice President could undoubtedly discuss Supreme Court decisions until they were blue in the face, but they are fucking disasters at running the country.<br /><br /><i>That's all well and good and core passion is great, but if rationality gets passed over as a symptom of the left we're in trouble.</i><br /><br />Rationality is not a "symptom of the Left". The Left is INSANE. That's why we're in the mess we're in now! Is there a single topic of importance in which the Leftist view could accurately be described as "rational" (i.e., in accordance with observable fact)? Hell, no. Yet they keep shoving the same failed approaches down our throat no matter how much evidence of failure is staring them in the face, which is the very definition of irrational in my book.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-24587461140852349702010-10-18T14:25:28.941+11:002010-10-18T14:25:28.941+11:00"Trust me, the Tea Party in the USA is libert..."Trust me, the Tea Party in the USA is libertarian but also socially conservative."<br /><br />This is a big difference between Australasia and the U.S. Just about anyone who claimed to be a liberatarian in this part of the would be socially liberal, economically right-wing and pro-immigration. Certainly every libertarian blogger in New Zealand fits this profile, and NZ's most prominent libertarian, Lindsay Perigo is a gay Richard Dawkins fan.<br /><br />In the U.S you can get religious traditionalists who are economic libertarians and immigration restrictionists. Some are even protectionists. In a pure sense of course these people aren't libertarians, since they are only liberatarian to the extent they believe in limited government and low taxes. A pure libertarian believes in individual freedom in all policy areas.<br /><br />In New Zealand I suspect that the decline of social conservatism has been assisted by the rise of free trade neoliberalism, since free trade dislocates people and makes the working class more reliant on the state for handouts.Mike Courtmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15226171376902020196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-8032415586508687402010-10-18T11:49:01.477+11:002010-10-18T11:49:01.477+11:00"We need to establish the realm of ideas and ..."We need to establish the realm of ideas and critical thinking as a comfort zone for the right as much as it is the purview of any other segment of society."<br /><br />Hear, hear.Jesse_7https://www.blogger.com/profile/08732509086253241748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-5231255924517697032010-10-18T00:48:54.804+11:002010-10-18T00:48:54.804+11:00Jesse_7,
That is a good point about "rationa...Jesse_7,<br /><br />That is a good point about "rationality getting passed over". I think many on the right already believe that liberals enjoy a near monopoly on matters intellectual. Witness the anti-intellectual clods who habitually inhabit the GOP, acting as though their ignorance were a badge of honor in solidarity with the people. A man can be "down home friendly" without discarding his intellect.<br /><br />We need to establish the realm of ideas and critical thinking as a comfort zone for the right as much as it is the purview of any other segment of society.leadpbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08957439101293478340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-65799301856623383742010-10-17T21:29:41.083+11:002010-10-17T21:29:41.083+11:00We've also seen especially with the female Rep...We've also seen especially with the female Republican and Tea Party leaders of late (and also with George Bush) a desire to play the "dumb" card a little. I'm one of you not one of the Washington elites. That's all well and good and core passion is great, but if rationality gets passed over as a symptom of the left we're in trouble.Jesse_7https://www.blogger.com/profile/08732509086253241748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-26779058902816198122010-10-17T13:53:11.193+11:002010-10-17T13:53:11.193+11:00On Beck he has the constant issue of "wanting...On Beck he has the constant issue of "wanting to stay inside the tent", ie appearing conservative but not too conservative. O'Rielly had the same issue and endorsed Obama at the last election.Jesse_7https://www.blogger.com/profile/08732509086253241748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-15722898105018552612010-10-17T13:50:32.995+11:002010-10-17T13:50:32.995+11:00We are getting a bit of a Tea party sprining up in...We are getting a bit of a Tea party sprining up in the Murray Darling basin water redistribution issue. The fire in it probably wouldn't have been the same under a Liberal government.Jesse_7https://www.blogger.com/profile/08732509086253241748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-55428324387439977812010-10-17T12:52:42.603+11:002010-10-17T12:52:42.603+11:00My take on the Tea Party movement has changed a bi...My take on the Tea Party movement has changed a bit over the past several months. At first I believed it to be quaint and more than a little naive (the same way I view libertarianism) for thinking that a "return to the constitution" is possible without addressing social and racial realities. Now I see that the Tea Party is useful insofar as it is a grassroots reaction to Obama. While visceral reaction rather than principle seems to be the driving force behind the movement, such gut feelings are entirely necessary for defending any civilization (Washington said that Americans would <i>feel</i> the truth before they could see it). The Obama camp views the Tea Party as ascendant fascism, and in their own reaction have brought out the big guns. The more the Tea Party advances, the more the mask slips away and the naked totalitarianism beneath is revealed.<br /><br />No such movement would have been possible under John McCain.<br /><br />That being said, the Tea Party will never be a serious threat to liberalism on its own, but it may be a necessary step in the right direction.<br /><br />P.S. When Glenn Beck tearfully embraced an adulterous, plagiarizing, communist Negro as the pinnacle of American civilization, he became a net loss for conservatism. What positive aspects he possesses are nullified by his being another tiresome White Guilter. I'm sure that if asked he would side wholeheartedly with those brave and noble Indians as well.Witchwoodnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-55207948388631622572010-10-17T09:33:15.143+11:002010-10-17T09:33:15.143+11:00Davout wrote,
"However, I disagree that he i...Davout wrote,<br /><br /><i>"However, I disagree that he is a few steps away from Obama and co."</i><br /><br />Yeah, you're right: It's a little harsh to say that Beck is a few steps shy of the Dems. I should have said that on certain issues, such as race, Beck is a few steps shy of the Dems. That's just a fast, which I demonstrate via those links.Bartholomewnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6832901.post-68057282659013039662010-10-16T22:08:23.762+11:002010-10-16T22:08:23.762+11:00The Tea Party isn't socially conservative. Gle...The Tea Party isn't socially conservative. Glenn Beck's, Sarah Palin's, etc are all part of the media representation of social conservatives. Aka:''Social conservatives are all lunatics!''. Remember that the MSM is dominated by left-liberals and in reality Glenn Beck's, etc are most likely posers, fakes or liars (or even liberals themselves).<br /><br />If you want social conservatism go to MereOrthodoxy or something of the sort.Elizabeth Smithhttp://alcestiseshtemoa.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.com